Jazz dump Ingles and Hughes to save money...
Not impressed with this trade.

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 9th, 2022, 1:10 pm

Jazz dump Ingles and Hughes to save money...
Not impressed with this trade.

Jazz send Ingles, Elijah Hughes, and a second to Portland for Nickeil Alexander-Walker, and a second to San Antonio for Juancho Hernangomez.

With this, the Jazz have basically zero firsts or seconds for the next several years. I recognize the need to add Hughes and the pick to get Portland to take on Ingles' expiring given his injury and the tax situation, but Lindsay's continuous signing of bad backup centers and needing to include sweeteners to get rid of them really killed the Jazz's asset stash. I'm glad Lindsay was shown the door...he really screwed things up over the backup center situation (which is pretty much the easiest position to fill in FA), including (especially) by drafting Azubiuke over Desmond Bane.

While this is a money move, it's not entirely just that. They're not actually saving that much money this year, so they must like the players they got or there are more trades coming. They traded away about $14.5MM but added a bit over $10 million, so they only drop $4.5 million in salary (probably like $12 million in tax).

Nickeil Alexander-Walker, from New Orleans by way of Portland, 3rd year, 6'6 wing, 12.8 pts this year...just ok 3 pt shooter (33%), defensive stats do not indicate a great defender, although the Pelicans have haven't been great defensively...hopefully he'll be better in the Jazz's system. On his rookie deal making $3.2MM this year and $5MM next year.

Juancho Hernangomez,. Coming from San Antonio, 5th year, 6'9 PF. 5.3 ppg over his career, but only 1.1 ppg this year. Decent 3pt shooter early in his career, abysmal this year in his very limited minutes. Advanced stats suggest a minus defender over his career. He's making just under $6.9MM this year, with a team option for next year. This one seems odd. Did the Jazz have to take on Hernangomez just to get rid of Ingles' contract? If so, that negates over half of the financial reason to trade Ingles. Not sure he has any value to flip except for the team option if another team wants to drop salary for this summer's free agency...

If the Jazz really like Alexander-Walker and think he can become a plus defender, I can see the Portland half of the trade making some sense along with saving some money. But I'm not sold yet and am confused by them taking Hernangomez.

Garbage loss for the Jazz tonight. Jazz have a comfortable lead and Anthony Davis goes down with an injury, but they still choke it away.

This Jazz team isn't good enough to win a title. Enjoy the team for what it is during the next 2 years before Donovan asks out. Then we'll see if Ryan Smith has the cojones to be bad enough to get a shot at some MVP level talent.

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

I have stated this before - Mitchell will not win a title with any team on which he is the leading scorer.

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

Is that on Mitchell, or is that what is being asked of him by the coaching staff?

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 12:41 pm

This Jazz team isn't good enough to win a title. Enjoy the team for what it is during the next 2 years before Donovan asks out. Then we'll see if Ryan Smith has the cojones to be bad enough to get a shot at some MVP level talent.

MVP talent isn't coming to Utah. It isn't like Luka or Ja Morant is coming to the Jazz when their deals are up. The best chance for the Jazz to win the title is make the right moves and build the right pieces around their 25 ppg scorer and the best defensive player in the game. They now have a champion running the show, we'll see what moves he can make to get it done.

Yossarian wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

I have stated this before - Mitchell will not win a title with any team on which he is the leading scorer.

Maybe, maybe not. Go look at the Top 75 players of all time that will be honored at the all star game. Many were great scorers that didn't win rings. Winning championships, especially in markets like SLC is extremely difficult. Karl Malone never did, but was certainly capable had a few things gone differently in the finals. Mitchell can win if the Jazz make the right moves in the next few years. The Greek Freak was a constant playoff choker until Milwaukee brought in Jrue Holiday plus some good role players in Bobby Portis, PJ Tucker and Pat connaughton before their title season. Forget playoff choker, Devin Booker was mocked as an empty stats loser who couldn't even sniff the playoffs. They had CP3 and Jae Crowder and they make the finals and are the favorites to win this year. For the most part Mitchell has been awesome in the playoffs. I'm not worried about him. I want to see some improved role players and depth.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 6:34 pm

Yossarian wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

I have stated this before - Mitchell will not win a title with any team on which he is the leading scorer.

Maybe, maybe not. Go look at the Top 75 players of all time that will be honored at the all star game. Many were great scorers that didn't win rings. Winning championships, especially in markets like SLC is extremely difficult. Karl Malone never did, but was certainly capable had a few things gone differently in the finals. Mitchell can win if the Jazz make the right moves in the next few years. The Greek Freak was a constant playoff choker until Milwaukee brought in Jrue Holiday plus some good role players in Bobby Portis, PJ Tucker and Pat connaughton before their title season. Forget playoff choker, Devin Booker was mocked as an empty stats loser who couldn't even sniff the playoffs. They had CP3 and Jae Crowder and they make the finals and are the favorites to win this year.

We've been through this before. The list of NBA champions in the last 30 years whose best player/ leading scorer is shorter than 6'5" is very short. The odds are not in Mitchell's favor.

Yossarian wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 6:38 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 6:34 pm

Yossarian wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:56 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

I have stated this before - Mitchell will not win a title with any team on which he is the leading scorer.

Maybe, maybe not. Go look at the Top 75 players of all time that will be honored at the all star game. Many were great scorers that didn't win rings. Winning championships, especially in markets like SLC is extremely difficult. Karl Malone never did, but was certainly capable had a few things gone differently in the finals. Mitchell can win if the Jazz make the right moves in the next few years. The Greek Freak was a constant playoff choker until Milwaukee brought in Jrue Holiday plus some good role players in Bobby Portis, PJ Tucker and Pat connaughton before their title season. Forget playoff choker, Devin Booker was mocked as an empty stats loser who couldn't even sniff the playoffs. They had CP3 and Jae Crowder and they make the finals and are the favorites to win this year.

We've been through this before. The list of NBA champions in the last 30 years whose best player/ leading scorer is shorter than 6'5" is very short. The odds are not in Mitchell's favor.

Currently the top 4 seeds in the west all are led by players under 6 5. The Jazz winning the title in the next few years won't be determined by Mitchell's height, but whether he can play great in the playoffs and has the right role players surrounding him and Gobert.

dirtnsnow wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:59 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

Is that on Mitchell, or is that what is being asked of him by the coaching staff?

Iso-dribble for half the shot clock is no coach's request.

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 7:45 pm

dirtnsnow wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:59 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure Mitchell can win a title.

When he tries to play hero ball, that's when this team is horrible to watch and they lose against good teams. I turned off last nights game after watching possession after possession of Mitchell pounding the ball for 10 seconds on offense.
That's boring to watch and a game-loser for the Jazz.

Donovan needs to learn to play team ball. If he can't, I think the Jazz would be better off trading him before they get nothing for him.

Is that on Mitchell, or is that what is being asked of him by the coaching staff?

Iso-dribble for half the shot clock is no coach's request.

In the NBA, it absolutely is. Gotta keep those usage stats up to keep the stars happy.

It does suck to see the Jazz develop Georges Niang only to see the fruits of their labor on the Sixers with him being a good contributor for them. The Jazz management has made some great moves, but they have really blown it building depth and putting good rotational players around their core.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 6:24 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 12:41 pm

This Jazz team isn't good enough to win a title. Enjoy the team for what it is during the next 2 years before Donovan asks out. Then we'll see if Ryan Smith has the cojones to be bad enough to get a shot at some MVP level talent.

MVP talent isn't coming to Utah. It isn't like Luka or Ja Morant is coming to the Jazz when their deals are up. The best chance for the Jazz to win the title is make the right moves and build the right pieces around their 25 ppg scorer and the best defensive player in the game. They now have a champion running the show, we'll see what moves he can make to get it done.

The problem is, our 25 ppg scorer is very likely asking out in no more than 2 seasons if the Jazz aren't winning titles.

Once that happens, the only way they're getting MVP talent is by sucking enough to get a couple top 3 picks like the Sixers did. Giannis's are pretty darn rare.

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 9:35 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 6:24 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑

February 17th, 2022, 12:41 pm

This Jazz team isn't good enough to win a title. Enjoy the team for what it is during the next 2 years before Donovan asks out. Then we'll see if Ryan Smith has the cojones to be bad enough to get a shot at some MVP level talent.

MVP talent isn't coming to Utah. It isn't like Luka or Ja Morant is coming to the Jazz when their deals are up. The best chance for the Jazz to win the title is make the right moves and build the right pieces around their 25 ppg scorer and the best defensive player in the game. They now have a champion running the show, we'll see what moves he can make to get it done.

The problem is, our 25 ppg scorer is very likely asking out in no more than 2 seasons if the Jazz aren't winning titles.

Once that happens, the only way they're getting MVP talent is by sucking enough to get a couple top 3 picks like the Sixers did. Giannis's are pretty darn rare.

Your second sentence is exactly correct and why it is so important to build a team around Mitchell and Gobert over the next few seasons. No matter the criticism people of have of Mitchell or Gobert, the Jazz wouldn't get equal value for either of them and they represent the best chance for the Jazz to win a title. Getting two consistent all stars in their prime is not an easy thing in Utah. I am much more worried about building a roster around them, then spending time attacking either of them. Mitchell doesn't leave if he can compete for titles in Utah.

Also, I certainly buy there is a chance he leaves if the Jazz don't do their part, but he isn't going to the Knicks unless they make their own set of changes. Any player is a threat to leave their current place, that is just the modern NBA, but the sports media needs to quit giving credence to the idea that they all want to play for the Knicks.

The Jazz won’t win a title in the next two years.

NVAggie wrote: ↑

February 20th, 2022, 9:28 am

The Jazz won’t win a title in the next two years.

Maybe not. It is damn hard to win a title in the nba. We also dont know what moves they will make. Things can change in a hurry. In the summer of 06 nobody would have predicted boston would win a title within 2 years yet ainge made it happen from a team far worse than what the jazz are now. In the summer of 07 the same for the lakers. Kobe at the time was wanting out and considered a flop without shaq by many people. Ditto with golden state and toronto two years before their titles. Phoenix 2 years ago was one of the biggest jokes of the league and now they have the best record and are the title favorites. Id give ainge more than a month on the job before pronouncing he cant get it done in Utah

I've never hated watching a team I like more than I hate watching this Jazz team.

Yeah.. this kinda feels like that this is the moment that breaks them for good. Seeing how mentally weak they are, I’m not sure how they come back from this.

Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:

NVAggie wrote: ↑

February 20th, 2022, 9:28 am

The Jazz won’t win a title in the next two years.

Maybe not. It is damn hard to win a title in the nba. We also dont know what moves they will make. Things can change in a hurry. In the summer of 06 nobody would have predicted boston would win a title within 2 years yet ainge made it happen from a team far worse than what the jazz are now. In the summer of 07 the same for the lakers. Kobe at the time was wanting out and considered a flop without shaq by many people. Ditto with golden state and toronto two years before their titles. Phoenix 2 years ago was one of the biggest jokes of the league and now they have the best record and are the title favorites. Id give ainge more than a month on the job before pronouncing he cant get it done in Utah

Maybe I’m completely off-base here, it kinda feels like Quinn S is keeping the Jazz back for a better match up opportunity. So many players are missing random games .. seems like Snyder has resigned to rest the stars until April 1st and start making a run.

Maybe im way way out in left field and when Ingels tore his ACL that was it, no more championship. He was the bench glue.

Once the playoffs start Donovan needs to avg 40+ a game to give the Jazz a chance to win each series, if not their season will end quickly.

The jazz have the talent to win a championship .. question is do the have the mental toughness and heart to fight through this.

Additions of Gay Paschal and G Monroe is enough to match up well with most everyone in the league, Phoenix is beatable, we’ll see if Donovan really wants it or has become too apathetic and is just collecting a paycheck?? He is still very good at 25 points a night .. his 2020 version was better.

3rdGenAggie wrote:Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.

I’d rather see the Jazz trade for Jayson Tatum and keep Gobert pull the levers and see what other moves might be good around those 2. Just some ideas for the off season

LoveMyAggies wrote: ↑

March 31st, 2022, 2:15 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote:Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.

I’d rather see the Jazz trade for Jayson Tatum and keep Gobert pull the levers and see what other moves might be good around those 2. Just some ideas for the off season

That would be awesome, but Celtics wouldn't trade Tatum for Mitchell straight across and the Jazz don't have picks to sweeten the pot. And that's assuming the Celtics are at all interested in moving Tatum.

Keep Mitchell. Lose Gobert.

Jazz have no leadership. Mitchell tried to be but is a head case. Would be better as a second or third option on a championship team. I thought he was going to be a great leader but has digressed very rapidly. Funny how every post games he talks about how he needs to get better and pretends he cares but never does anything to get better. Wasting his physical talent. Shouldn’t be to hard to figure out how they continue to blow huge leads. Every 4th quarter ball gets stuck in Mitchell’s hands. Or Clarkson. No ball movement, stop doing everything that got you the lead. Pathetic. How can you not figure that out?


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LoveMyAggies wrote: ↑

March 31st, 2022, 2:14 pm

Once the playoffs start Donovan needs to avg 40+ a game to give the Jazz a chance to win each series, if not their season will end quickly.

The jazz have the talent to win a championship .. question is do the have the mental toughness and heart to fight through this.

Additions of Gay Paschal and G Monroe is enough to match up well with most everyone in the league, Phoenix is beatable, we’ll see if Donovan really wants it or has become too apathetic and is just collecting a paycheck?? He is still very good at 25 points a night .. his 2020 version was better.

Scoring isn't the problem, it's defense. If players not named Gobert can't defend like every defensive possession is critical, Utah can't win the championship.

GeoAg wrote: ↑

March 31st, 2022, 4:37 pm

Keep Mitchell. Lose Gobert.

I get the argument, but Mitchell is out in 3 more seasons, so you'll be trading him in 2 or losing him for nothing after three.

That's gotta play a role in the decision.

brownjeans wrote: ↑

March 31st, 2022, 10:17 pm

LoveMyAggies wrote: ↑

March 31st, 2022, 2:14 pm

Once the playoffs start Donovan needs to avg 40+ a game to give the Jazz a chance to win each series, if not their season will end quickly.

The jazz have the talent to win a championship .. question is do the have the mental toughness and heart to fight through this.

Additions of Gay Paschal and G Monroe is enough to match up well with most everyone in the league, Phoenix is beatable, we’ll see if Donovan really wants it or has become too apathetic and is just collecting a paycheck?? He is still very good at 25 points a night .. his 2020 version was better.

Scoring isn't the problem, it's defense. If players not named Gobert can't defend like every defensive possession is critical, Utah can't win the championship.

Totally agree with this assessment. For whatever reason, they get a lead and feel like the other team should roll over and everyone coast to the end of the game. It's been that way for several years. They're just not hungry enough as a collective.

It sucks the Jazz had no interest in defending or winning these past few games because there's no reason they shouldn't have had that 3 seed locked up. Now they almost need to fall to 6th in order to make a run, but I'm sure Denver is thinking the same thing. A path through Dallas and Memphis is no where near the same as having GSW and PHX in the first two rounds.

Suns will win the west, regardless of how things shake out, but at least having Utah finally make it to the WCF would mean a lot. At least I would consider that a win with all things considered.

Interesting post. Honestly the jazz are small on the perimeter and don’t think the tandem of Rudy and Donovan carries them to a championship. Might as well blow things up and start the rebuild.

On a side note they gave up way too much for Conley (another small guard to pair up with Mitchell).

Rudy would be crazy good running pick and roll with Luka.

I think with Donovan they honestly need to make some tough decisions and sell while his value is at its peak. If the team suddenly shows very real signs of being able to truly compete for a championship it would be worth riding it out with him, but otherwise get while the getting is good.

slcagg wrote: ↑

April 1st, 2022, 3:18 pm

Interesting post. Honestly the jazz are small on the perimeter and don’t think the tandem of Rudy and Donovan carries them to a championship. Might as well blow things up and start the rebuild.

On a side note they gave up way too much for Conley (another small guard to pair up with Mitchell).

I am okay with this. I say blow it up. I really like Rudy, but if he is happy going to the Mavs and it benefits everyone, maybe it's for the best. Trade Mitchell while he has value. If the jazz can get a bunch of firsts out of those two, that is great. Esspecially if we can get a bunch of firsts that belong to the Knicks, those will always be high picks.

I kind of like cheering for the under dog Jazz teams anyway.

The Jazz have really outdone themselves lately.

I miss the Millers. BYU Ryan sucks.

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑

March 29th, 2022, 11:39 pm

Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.

lol nope. You don't trade the best Jazz player in 20 years and one of the best scorers in the game today who isn't even in his prime yet just because you aren't winning a championship right away. Imagine if the Suns traded Devin Booker after 5 years or Milwaukee traded the Greek Freak after 5 years? They had less playoff wins combined than what Mitchell has done. And you are wrong that it is easier to build around a guy like Rudy Gobert. Players that are limited offensively don't lead teams to titles. I wouldn't trade Gobert either, but he is first to go if there is a Gobert/Donovan divorce.

Your point is also wrong that is better to be in the bottom 5 than 8-15. Golden State was in the 8-15 range before their 3 titles. Toronto was in that range before making the move for Kawhi to get over the hump and win their title. Milwaukee was in that range for several years before making some moves to get over the top and winning their title. Even Phoenix was an up and coming team that had gone 8-0 in the bubble before adding Chris Paul and Jae Crowder to become a title contender. With some rare exceptions, stars don't go to bad teams and most bad teams stay bad for a long time. Minnesota is just barely escaping the bottom of the NBA after being in the toilet for almost 20 years. The Jazz are a far more attractive destination to free agents with Mitchell on the roster compared to if they started over.

As for the Knicks, every star player has been rumored to want to go to the Knicks, but very few go and the ones that do often regret it. Even if he is deadset on going to New York, trading him there would not make the Jazz better. A trade for Randle/Fournier and some picks doesn't make the Jazz better. Even if you are excited by top 10 picks, most likely the Jazz draft a Dante Exum or a Enes Kanter instead of another Mitchell. And even if they did hit a homerun and draft another Mitchell, what would be the point? You already have a 25 year old Mitchell now.

Mitchell is under contract for 3 more years which is eternity in the NBA. We are lightyears away from having the discussion of "oh we got to move him just to get something." Time for Danny Ainge to improve the roster around the star player, not destroy the good thing they have going.