VB GAME FORFITS_SJSU TRANS PLAYER

USU78 · Post by **USU78** » October 21st, 2024, 6:59 pm

Don't care for the notion of ceding decision making authority on this issue. Have you met the UN? If the issue requires that the US and Western Europe pay somebody for some damnfool purpose, the body will approve the compulsory check be written. If the issue's anti Israel, ditto.

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » October 21st, 2024, 10:05 pm

cowcollege wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 4:53 pm

TrueAG wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 3:47 pm

cowcollege wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 3:37 pm
a mute/hide thread feature would be so great for topics like this
No self control?
It just goes quiet for days and then zombifies back up with absolutely no new information. Just the same circle over and over and over again (and now I’m contributing to it)

The quote from the MW commissioner, and Nevada opting to forfeit against the position of the University are definitely new.

Yes, I do bring up quantifiable sports because they are the ones that truly measure the difference between biological males and females. In all of this I admit that while I was certainly much faster than the average male, I was not someone that would have ever competed against the very best HS boys out there. If someone like me was allowed to compete with the girls and possibly win a state title, it just demonstrates why safeguards need to be put in place.

In sports that are team events (basketball, VB, softball etc.), it may not be noticed as easily since it takes several people to win, but that biological advantage exists.

The fact that the commissioner of the league calls this political is ridiculous. Politics doesn't determine testosterone in a person or the muscle mass, and courts need to rule on this. The Olympics and major sports leagues cracked down on doping, and it isn’t really hard to enforce this since doctor's physical are required to play sports.

This will likely end up at the Supreme Court in my opinion.

OKAggie · Post by **OKAggie** » October 21st, 2024, 10:12 pm

USU78 wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 6:59 pm
Don't care for the notion of ceding decision making authority on this issue. Have you met the UN? If the issue requires that the US and Western Europe pay somebody for some damnfool purpose, the body will approve the compulsory check be written. If the issue's anti Israel, ditto.

And maybe more to the point, and less Sandboxy*: why cede decision-making over American amateur, school and college athletics to organizations which govern international (and typically professional) athletics? Most young girls won't play in college, most college young women won't play professionally (when their bodies are most developed and mature).

For that matter, your points 1 and 2 are contradictory - international governing bodies are nothing if not political.

And finally, your point 3. still requires someone to make an objective determination that a trans-girl is too good to play with the girl-girls. I know you didn't want to address this, but bottom line someone has to: who has the burden of proof? The trans-girl who says she's not too skilled, or the girl-girl who says otherwise?

* not that I disagree

NVAggie · Post by **NVAggie** » October 22nd, 2024, 8:54 am

I think it is rather simple. You play in the sport that matches your biology. This never seems to be an issue with biological females playing male sports. We all know of stories where females play football or baseball. There isn't a problem there because these females aren't playing with a biological advantage over their male counterparts.

In contrast, biological males competing in female sports continue to be an issue. There are obvious biological advantages that will never be suppressed sufficiently (we don't even know how to quantify this). It simply shouldn't be allowed. To suggest that hormones or other treatments are going to adequately suppress the advantages a male has over a female in physical interaction is unscientific and dishonest. It would be akin to allowing the dopers to continue to compete without consequence, but also only allowing a few of those dopers to dope.

I know there are emotional issues connected to this debate. People suffering from gender dysmorphia have extremely high rates of suicidality. These people are still people. I don't know if it is the best idea to put these types of people in situations where they will be scorned and made fun of. Is that really something we want to do to someone with a mental health issue? These situations also invite those with nefarious desires to steal away accolade and success that they wouldn't earn in their own gender sport. None of these are protecting biological women or trans-women. Instead, they only serve the pursuer of prize or political gain.

Ultimately, I think the desire to normalize gender dysmorphia is detrimental to those who suffer. These people need support, acceptance, and real help. We need to stop anyone that may experience bullying. We need to accept these people as people. I don't think throwing them into the theater of sports is the best place to keep them safe.

TrueAG · Post by **TrueAG** » October 22nd, 2024, 3:28 pm

This isn't complicated. Nothing has changed, you play in your biological sex sport. If you aren't good enough, you are just like the rest of us who just become fans.

calaggie · Post by **calaggie** » October 22nd, 2024, 7:22 pm

NVAggie wrote: ↑
October 22nd, 2024, 8:54 am
I think it is rather simple. You play in the sport that matches your biology. This never seems to be an issue with biological females playing male sports. We all know of stories where females play football or baseball. There isn't a problem there because these females aren't playing with a biological advantage over their male counterparts.

In contrast, biological males competing in female sports continue to be an issue. There are obvious biological advantages that will never be suppressed sufficiently (we don't even know how to quantify this). It simply shouldn't be allowed. To suggest that hormones or other treatments are going to adequately suppress the advantages a male has over a female in physical interaction is unscientific and dishonest. It would be akin to allowing the dopers to continue to compete without consequence, but also only allowing a few of those dopers to dope.

I know there are emotional issues connected to this debate. People suffering from gender dysmorphia have extremely high rates of suicidality. These people are still people. I don't know if it is the best idea to put these types of people in situations where they will be scorned and made fun of. Is that really something we want to do to someone with a mental health issue? These situations also invite those with nefarious desires to steal away accolade and success that they wouldn't earn in their own gender sport. None of these are protecting biological women or trans-women. Instead, they only serve the pursuer of prize or political gain.

Ultimately, I think the desire to normalize gender dysmorphia is detrimental to those who suffer. These people need support, acceptance, and real help. We need to stop anyone that may experience bullying. We need to accept these people as people. I don't think throwing them into the theater of sports is the best place to keep them safe.

If someone is really doing this (and I’m not convinced it really happens), their issue is not gender dysmorphia, but something calculated and disturbing.

NVAggie · Post by **NVAggie** » October 22nd, 2024, 8:47 pm

I would say it is extremely rare, but not a zero.

tipitup · Post by **tipitup** » October 23rd, 2024, 9:18 am

now the nevada game is rescheduled to be "played" at san jose. since Nevada hasn't actually forfeited san jose has to show up to the game, and they figured it was best to reschedule at san jose so they can make it easier to get to and not be in a hostile place. "The decision to move the location of the match has been made in the best interest of both programs and the well-being of the student-athletes, coaches, athletic staff and spectators. " but not the players playing against the san jose player.

Stucki · Post by **Stucki** » October 23rd, 2024, 10:50 am

OKAggie wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 10:12 pm

USU78 wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 6:59 pm
Don't care for the notion of ceding decision making authority on this issue. Have you met the UN? If the issue requires that the US and Western Europe pay somebody for some damnfool purpose, the body will approve the compulsory check be written. If the issue's anti Israel, ditto.
And maybe more to the point, and less Sandboxy*: why cede decision-making over American amateur, school and college athletics to organizations which govern international (and typically professional) athletics? Most young girls won't play in college, most college young women won't play professionally (when their bodies are most developed and mature).

For that matter, your points 1 and 2 are contradictory - international governing bodies are nothing if not political.

And finally, your point 3. still requires someone to make an objective determination that a trans-girl is too good to play with the girl-girls. I know you didn't want to address this, but bottom line someone has to: who has the burden of proof? The trans-girl who says she's not too skilled, or the girl-girl who says otherwise?

* not that I disagree

College athletics because it is the training ground for the worlds's athletes for Olympic competition. The NCAA was very well represented at the recent Paris olympics by both current and former NCAA athletes in multiple sports for many countries.

High school athletics should be governed by the national and state federations.

While I agree that international governing bodies are inherently political, it is not the same as dealing with the issue in our government bodies. When I say get it out of politics I mean state legislatures and Congress.

Point 3 is the sticking point, as it is the most complicated. It isn't so much that I don't want to address it is that I'm not sure how to. For example, the UHSAA had procedures in place for trans athlete eligibility before the state legislature ever got involved. It included medical records showing hormone treatments and other statements from personal physicians for at least one year before they would be cleared to compete. It would have precluded male athletes from competing by just making a declaration that they were female as was actually allowed in at least one other state. The first attempt by the legislature to meddle in the UHSAA's rules on this matter included a committee that included a medical professional among others to decide eligibility for trans athletes on a case by case basis. This is probably the right approach, but still difficult. Then you get into who appoints them and what makes people eligible to be on the committee, which most likely brings politics back into it.

After thinking about the burden of proof question, it has to be on the athlete going through whatever process has been determined by the activities association at the high school level and by the NCAA and the national sport organization as outlined by the international governing body. So in the specific case of Fleming, the procedures outlined by the NCAA as the competition organizer, USA Volleyball as the national representative of FIVB. If the rules of been followed then allow the athlete to play.

The thing that really needs to be looked at by the NCAA and other sports organizing organizations is are the current rules enough to offset the inherent biological advantages to an acceptable level or do they need to be revised. Then if changes need to be made, do it at that level. Shultz, Adams, Romero, Escamilla, and Cox are not the people who should be determining this issue.

Stucki · Post by **Stucki** » October 23rd, 2024, 10:51 am

tipitup wrote: ↑
October 23rd, 2024, 9:18 am
now the nevada game is rescheduled to be "played" at san jose. since Nevada hasn't actually forfeited san jose has to show up to the game, and they figured it was best to reschedule at san jose so they can make it easier to get to and not be in a hostile place. "The decision to move the location of the match has been made in the best interest of both programs and the well-being of the student-athletes, coaches, athletic staff and spectators. " but not the players playing against the san jose player.

Also so Nevada doesn't have to pay travel costs for San Jose.

WAAggie · Post by **WAAggie** » October 25th, 2024, 2:37 pm

Sounds like the “blue flu” struck Nevadas vb team and not enough players to take the court results in a forfeit.

So sorry to hear about the sudden shortage of players

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » October 25th, 2024, 7:59 pm

WAAggie wrote: ↑
October 25th, 2024, 2:37 pm
Sounds like the “blue flu” struck Nevadas vb team and not enough players to take the court results in a forfeit.

So sorry to hear about the sudden shortage of players

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They forfeited, and this one was definitely player led.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 812227007/

These lady athletes don't know proper feminism and how hard women worked for equal rights in sports.

trevordude · Post by **trevordude** » October 25th, 2024, 8:51 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote: ↑
October 25th, 2024, 7:59 pm

WAAggie wrote: ↑
October 25th, 2024, 2:37 pm
Sounds like the “blue flu” struck Nevadas vb team and not enough players to take the court results in a forfeit.

So sorry to hear about the sudden shortage of players

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They forfeited, and this one was definitely player led.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 812227007/

These lady athletes don't know proper feminism and how hard women worked for equal rights in sports.

Per the article, these MW volleyball teams are full of right wing activists. Hitler was an excellent setter in his day, Steve Bannon at the net is a sight

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » November 2nd, 2024, 8:23 pm

SJSU has suspended a coach that filed a Title IX complaint against the University.

https://www.outkick.com/sports/san-jose ... -suspended

trevordude · Post by **trevordude** » November 2nd, 2024, 9:45 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote: ↑
November 2nd, 2024, 8:23 pm
SJSU has suspended a coach that filed a Title IX complaint against the University.

https://www.outkick.com/sports/san-jose ... -suspended

The associate head coach is a Nazi bigot. The trans woman has obviously been under a lot of stress and attention, and deserves a pass here.

The rest of the so called "women" on the SJSU team and other Mnt West schools need to learn to step up and support other women

CedarAg · Post by **CedarAg** » November 3rd, 2024, 5:16 pm

A DNA test definitively determines gender! There should be zero guessing.

Gidbob · Post by **Gidbob** » November 14th, 2024, 4:46 am

https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1856845416219717888

They're suing the conference over this now. I have a guess about who the USU player in it is, but I don't really know anything so I won't say who I think it is.

MahlerFan1 · Post by **MahlerFan1** » November 14th, 2024, 11:37 am

Gidbob wrote: ↑
November 14th, 2024, 4:46 am
https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1856845416219717888

They're suing the conference over this now. I have a guess about who the USU player in it is, but I don't really know anything so I won't say who I think it is.

The player has been publicly named in mainstream sources, FYI. I don't know what consequence Nevarez might face, if any, but she has handled this whole thing very badly, and this is another reason to be glad we are on our way out of the conference.

Gidbob · Post by **Gidbob** » November 14th, 2024, 1:05 pm

MahlerFan1 wrote: ↑
November 14th, 2024, 11:37 am

Gidbob wrote: ↑
November 14th, 2024, 4:46 am
https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1856845416219717888

They're suing the conference over this now. I have a guess about who the USU player in it is, but I don't really know anything so I won't say who I think it is.
The player has been publicly named in mainstream sources, FYI. I don't know what consequence Nevarez might face, if any, but she has handled this whole thing very badly, and this is another reason to be glad we are on our way out of the conference.

I didn't see her named earlier, but it is who I suspected seeing it now.

Aggiefan33 · Post by **Aggiefan33** » November 14th, 2024, 2:10 pm

Yeah, with the court filing now available it is not in question. If I had to have guessed as well, I would have guessed the USU player. She has been the most outspoken on it. So it makes sense that she would be the one on the lawsuit.

middleageag · Post by **middleageag** » November 14th, 2024, 4:27 pm

Why is nobody just putting her name here?
Kaylie Ray- her picture (in school issued uniform) is in the first reply to the tweet linked above, and named in the link on that same tweet.

https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1856849561152553217
https://www.iconswomen.com/take-on-the-mountain-west/

Gidbob · Post by **Gidbob** » November 15th, 2024, 6:48 am

middleageag wrote: ↑
November 14th, 2024, 4:27 pm
Why is nobody just putting her name here?
Kaylie Ray- her picture (in school issued uniform) is in the first reply to the tweet linked above, and named in the link on that same tweet.

https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1856849561152553217
https://www.iconswomen.com/take-on-the-mountain-west/

I didn't look at replies when I first posted and didn't see her name in the article on the post itself. I highly suspected it was her tho. After seeing that it was posted publicly I figured anyone who cared either knew or could easily find out.

jpswensen · Post by **jpswensen** » November 15th, 2024, 8:34 am

Stucki wrote: ↑
October 23rd, 2024, 10:50 am

OKAggie wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 10:12 pm

USU78 wrote: ↑
October 21st, 2024, 6:59 pm
Don't care for the notion of ceding decision making authority on this issue. Have you met the UN? If the issue requires that the US and Western Europe pay somebody for some damnfool purpose, the body will approve the compulsory check be written. If the issue's anti Israel, ditto.
And maybe more to the point, and less Sandboxy*: why cede decision-making over American amateur, school and college athletics to organizations which govern international (and typically professional) athletics? Most young girls won't play in college, most college young women won't play professionally (when their bodies are most developed and mature).

For that matter, your points 1 and 2 are contradictory - international governing bodies are nothing if not political.

And finally, your point 3. still requires someone to make an objective determination that a trans-girl is too good to play with the girl-girls. I know you didn't want to address this, but bottom line someone has to: who has the burden of proof? The trans-girl who says she's not too skilled, or the girl-girl who says otherwise?

* not that I disagree
College athletics because it is the training ground for the worlds's athletes for Olympic competition. The NCAA was very well represented at the recent Paris olympics by both current and former NCAA athletes in multiple sports for many countries.

High school athletics should be governed by the national and state federations.

While I agree that international governing bodies are inherently political, it is not the same as dealing with the issue in our government bodies. When I say get it out of politics I mean state legislatures and Congress.

Point 3 is the sticking point, as it is the most complicated. It isn't so much that I don't want to address it is that I'm not sure how to. For example, the UHSAA had procedures in place for trans athlete eligibility before the state legislature ever got involved. It included medical records showing hormone treatments and other statements from personal physicians for at least one year before they would be cleared to compete. It would have precluded male athletes from competing by just making a declaration that they were female as was actually allowed in at least one other state. The first attempt by the legislature to meddle in the UHSAA's rules on this matter included a committee that included a medical professional among others to decide eligibility for trans athletes on a case by case basis. This is probably the right approach, but still difficult. Then you get into who appoints them and what makes people eligible to be on the committee, which most likely brings politics back into it.

After thinking about the burden of proof question, it has to be on the athlete going through whatever process has been determined by the activities association at the high school level and by the NCAA and the national sport organization as outlined by the international governing body. So in the specific case of Fleming, the procedures outlined by the NCAA as the competition organizer, USA Volleyball as the national representative of FIVB. If the rules of been followed then allow the athlete to play.

The thing that really needs to be looked at by the NCAA and other sports organizing organizations is are the current rules enough to offset the inherent biological advantages to an acceptable level or do they need to be revised. Then if changes need to be made, do it at that level. Shultz, Adams, Romero, Escamilla, and Cox are not the people who should be determining this issue.

I would argue they aren’t doing enough to eliminate the inherent biological advantage. I did a deep dive into this back when it first became a thing. My conclusion was that even when individual sports have testosterone thresholds, those thresholds are 24-sigma from the mean of the overall biological female population and 7-sigma from the mean of elite biological female athletes.

That is an astronomical differential in testosterone levels even when actively trying to suppress its production. And you can go look at benefits of testosterone to ability to hold oxygen in blood, increase recovery from strength training, and a whole slew of other benefits they have. Even if they have got it down to 50% of a typical biological male, it is still 3-10x higher than a typical biological female.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73492&p=991243#p991243

Aggiefan33 · Post by **Aggiefan33** » November 18th, 2024, 11:59 am

Look for the State to push USU into the lawsuit as well.
Gov, Senate leadership will push this.

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » November 18th, 2024, 2:08 pm

Aggiefan33 wrote: ↑
November 18th, 2024, 11:59 am
Look for the State to push USU into the lawsuit as well.
Gov, Senate leadership will push this.

Governor Cox, Senate President Adams, and House Speaker Schultz all are pushing USU to intervene and side with Kaylie Ray on this issue.

https://www.ksl.com/article/51192499/go ... all-player

I understand that Gloria Nevarez is saying the law is being upheld, but the legislative bodies and courts need to modify the law. It isn't fair to women in sports at any level outside of possibly little-league, and reverses many of the protections in Title IX.

Aggiefan33 · Post by **Aggiefan33** » November 18th, 2024, 2:56 pm

This is what I was talking about. I wasn't sure if it would hit today or tomorrow.

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » November 19th, 2024, 1:01 pm

Aggiefan33 wrote: ↑
November 18th, 2024, 2:56 pm
This is what I was talking about. I wasn't sure if it would hit today or tomorrow.

Now every member of Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming's congressional delegation has sent a letter to the MW offices urging them to change the policy regarding transgender athletes in sports.

https://www.risch.senate.gov/public/_ca ... evarez.pdf

Signed by:

James E. Risch, Mike Crapo, John Barrasso, Cynthia Lummis, Burgess Owens, Russ Fulcher, Mike Simpson, John Curtis, Mike Lee, Mitt Romney, Celeste Maloy, Blake Moore, and Harriet Hageman

NowhereLandAggie · Post by **NowhereLandAggie** » November 19th, 2024, 1:50 pm

*UPDATE*

Utah State University has joined the lawsuit with the 11 other players and signed onto this.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/11/18 ... l-lawsuit/

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