Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 3rd, 2022, 1:59 pm

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 8:39 am
The Jazz have really outdone themselves lately.

I miss the Millers. BYU Ryan sucks.

Well it is still a team built by the Millers. We don't know what a Smith/Ainge team is yet. The core of the team including the 5 leading scorers and the Head Coach were all brought in under the Millers. We now get to see if the Smith/Ainge regime can make the necessary moves to get them over the top.

3rdGenAggie · Post by **3rdGenAggie** » April 3rd, 2022, 2:40 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 1:51 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
March 29th, 2022, 11:39 pm
Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.
lol nope. You don't trade the best Jazz player in 20 years and one of the best scorers in the game today who isn't even in his prime yet just because you aren't winning a championship right away. Imagine if the Suns traded Devin Booker after 5 years or Milwaukee traded the Greek Freak after 5 years? They had less playoff wins combined than what Mitchell has done. And you are wrong that it is easier to build around a guy like Rudy Gobert. Players that are limited offensively don't lead teams to titles. I wouldn't trade Gobert either, but he is first to go if there is a Gobert/Donovan divorce.

Your point is also wrong that is better to be in the bottom 5 than 8-15. Golden State was in the 8-15 range before their 3 titles. Toronto was in that range before making the move for Kawhi to get over the hump and win their title. Milwaukee was in that range for several years before making some moves to get over the top and winning their title. Even Phoenix was an up and coming team that had gone 8-0 in the bubble before adding Chris Paul and Jae Crowder to become a title contender. With some rare exceptions, stars don't go to bad teams and most bad teams stay bad for a long time. Minnesota is just barely escaping the bottom of the NBA after being in the toilet for almost 20 years. The Jazz are a far more attractive destination to free agents with Mitchell on the roster compared to if they started over.

As for the Knicks, every star player has been rumored to want to go to the Knicks, but very few go and the ones that do often regret it. Even if he is deadset on going to New York, trading him there would not make the Jazz better. A trade for Randle/Fournier and some picks doesn't make the Jazz better. Even if you are excited by top 10 picks, most likely the Jazz draft a Dante Exum or a Enes Kanter instead of another Mitchell. And even if they did hit a homerun and draft another Mitchell, what would be the point? You already have a 25 year old Mitchell now.

Mitchell is under contract for 3 more years which is eternity in the NBA. We are lightyears away from having the discussion of "oh we got to move him just to get something." Time for Danny Ainge to improve the roster around the star player, not destroy the good thing they have going.

That's all fair, but Phoenix was bad before getting a first-ballot hall of famer in Chris Paul. They gave up way less for Paul than the Jazz did for Conley.

I get not burning it down, but the concern is that the Jazz have no assets at all. The players currently on the roster are the only trading chips they have and they are way over the cap, so they can't sign anyone to anything other than a minimum contract or a mid-level exception.

The argument is that the Jazz don't have the cap space or the assets to add meaningful pieces. Their most tradeable pieces are Bogdanovich and Clarkson, either could bring back good players but won't bring back better players because the Jazz don't have anything to send along with them to sweeten the pot.

I think Dennis Lindsay really screwed the pooch and I'm glad he's gone. I agree that the Jazz won't tear anything down for at least 2 more seasons, but there's a very good chance not doing so now is just delaying an inevitable rebuild.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 3rd, 2022, 2:56 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 2:40 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 1:51 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
March 29th, 2022, 11:39 pm
Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.
lol nope. You don't trade the best Jazz player in 20 years and one of the best scorers in the game today who isn't even in his prime yet just because you aren't winning a championship right away. Imagine if the Suns traded Devin Booker after 5 years or Milwaukee traded the Greek Freak after 5 years? They had less playoff wins combined than what Mitchell has done. And you are wrong that it is easier to build around a guy like Rudy Gobert. Players that are limited offensively don't lead teams to titles. I wouldn't trade Gobert either, but he is first to go if there is a Gobert/Donovan divorce.

Your point is also wrong that is better to be in the bottom 5 than 8-15. Golden State was in the 8-15 range before their 3 titles. Toronto was in that range before making the move for Kawhi to get over the hump and win their title. Milwaukee was in that range for several years before making some moves to get over the top and winning their title. Even Phoenix was an up and coming team that had gone 8-0 in the bubble before adding Chris Paul and Jae Crowder to become a title contender. With some rare exceptions, stars don't go to bad teams and most bad teams stay bad for a long time. Minnesota is just barely escaping the bottom of the NBA after being in the toilet for almost 20 years. The Jazz are a far more attractive destination to free agents with Mitchell on the roster compared to if they started over.

As for the Knicks, every star player has been rumored to want to go to the Knicks, but very few go and the ones that do often regret it. Even if he is deadset on going to New York, trading him there would not make the Jazz better. A trade for Randle/Fournier and some picks doesn't make the Jazz better. Even if you are excited by top 10 picks, most likely the Jazz draft a Dante Exum or a Enes Kanter instead of another Mitchell. And even if they did hit a homerun and draft another Mitchell, what would be the point? You already have a 25 year old Mitchell now.

Mitchell is under contract for 3 more years which is eternity in the NBA. We are lightyears away from having the discussion of "oh we got to move him just to get something." Time for Danny Ainge to improve the roster around the star player, not destroy the good thing they have going.
That's all fair, but Phoenix was bad before getting a first-ballot hall of famer in Chris Paul. They gave up way less for Paul than the Jazz did for Conley.

I get not burning it down, but the concern is that the Jazz have no assets at all. The players currently on the roster are the only trading chips they have and they are way over the cap, so they can't sign anyone to anything other than a minimum contract or a mid-level exception.

The argument is that the Jazz don't have the cap space or the assets to add meaningful pieces. Their most tradeable pieces are Bogdanovich and Clarkson, either could bring back good players but won't bring back better players because the Jazz don't have anything to send along with them to sweeten the pot.

I think Dennis Lindsay really screwed the pooch and I'm glad he's gone. I agree that the Jazz won't tear anything down for at least 2 more seasons, but there's a very good chance not doing so now is just delaying an inevitable rebuild.

Phoenix wasn't great, but they weren't bottom 5 in the league either and CP3 doesn't agree to the Suns trade if they didn't have Booker and Ayton. Really the Jazz blew it by not making a move at CP3. The Suns got him for Kelly Oubre Jr., Ricky Rubio, Ty Jerome, Jalen Lecque and a first round pick. The Jazz could have come up with a better package than that.

Bogdanovich and Clarkson both need to be moved this offseason and I imagine they will. Royce O'neal will be harder to trade, but he has to be attached to one of those moves. He has been a liability all season.

Intermeddler · Post by **Intermeddler** » April 3rd, 2022, 8:47 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 1:51 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
March 29th, 2022, 11:39 pm
Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.
lol nope. You don't trade the best Jazz player in 20 years and one of the best scorers in the game today who isn't even in his prime yet just because you aren't winning a championship right away. Imagine if the Suns traded Devin Booker after 5 years or Milwaukee traded the Greek Freak after 5 years? They had less playoff wins combined than what Mitchell has done. And you are wrong that it is easier to build around a guy like Rudy Gobert. Players that are limited offensively don't lead teams to titles. I wouldn't trade Gobert either, but he is first to go if there is a Gobert/Donovan divorce.

Your point is also wrong that is better to be in the bottom 5 than 8-15. Golden State was in the 8-15 range before their 3 titles. Toronto was in that range before making the move for Kawhi to get over the hump and win their title. Milwaukee was in that range for several years before making some moves to get over the top and winning their title. Even Phoenix was an up and coming team that had gone 8-0 in the bubble before adding Chris Paul and Jae Crowder to become a title contender. With some rare exceptions, stars don't go to bad teams and most bad teams stay bad for a long time. Minnesota is just barely escaping the bottom of the NBA after being in the toilet for almost 20 years. The Jazz are a far more attractive destination to free agents with Mitchell on the roster compared to if they started over.

As for the Knicks, every star player has been rumored to want to go to the Knicks, but very few go and the ones that do often regret it. Even if he is deadset on going to New York, trading him there would not make the Jazz better. A trade for Randle/Fournier and some picks doesn't make the Jazz better. Even if you are excited by top 10 picks, most likely the Jazz draft a Dante Exum or a Enes Kanter instead of another Mitchell. And even if they did hit a homerun and draft another Mitchell, what would be the point? You already have a 25 year old Mitchell now.

Mitchell is under contract for 3 more years which is eternity in the NBA. We are lightyears away from having the discussion of "oh we got to move him just to get something." Time for Danny Ainge to improve the roster around the star player, not destroy the good thing they have going.

I agree. My only hesitation would be what happened with Houston. Harden demanded they trade Chris Paul so he could play with Westbrook again and they do it in an attempt to keep him happy and he ends up demanding they move him anyway.

I would hate to move Gobert to try and keep Mitchell happy only for Mitchell to leave as soon as he can, or force his way out even earlier than his contract date and we lose both. Tim McMahon, who generally seems favorable to the Jazz, was on Zach Lowe's podcast and called the idea of Mitchell staying here long term "ridiculous".

But, I don't think we have a choice. Finding a guy like him in our market is so hard have to try and keep him happy and build around him for better or worse. Which will be hard. I love Rudy. McMahon also mentioned Dallas covets Rudy and would make a big play for him if he became available. Rudy and Luka would be a really fun PnR combo to watch.

Post by **aggies22** » April 4th, 2022, 6:02 am

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 8:39 am
The Jazz have really outdone themselves lately.

I miss the Millers. BYU Ryan sucks.

They could not have sold the team to a bigger tool.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 4th, 2022, 10:07 am

Intermeddler wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 8:47 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 1:51 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
March 29th, 2022, 11:39 pm
Time to blow it up. Send Donovan to the Knicks where he wants to be so he can go be the next star who fails to return them to relevance.

With Rudy I'm torn. He's so easy to build around as a rare star who doesn't need the ball in his hands, but keeping him likely signals they're going to attempt to keep being "good".

In the NBA if you're not in the top 4 or 5 teams, you're better off being in the bottom 4 or 5 teams. Jazz are perpetually around 8-15 which is no-mans land.
lol nope. You don't trade the best Jazz player in 20 years and one of the best scorers in the game today who isn't even in his prime yet just because you aren't winning a championship right away. Imagine if the Suns traded Devin Booker after 5 years or Milwaukee traded the Greek Freak after 5 years? They had less playoff wins combined than what Mitchell has done. And you are wrong that it is easier to build around a guy like Rudy Gobert. Players that are limited offensively don't lead teams to titles. I wouldn't trade Gobert either, but he is first to go if there is a Gobert/Donovan divorce.

Your point is also wrong that is better to be in the bottom 5 than 8-15. Golden State was in the 8-15 range before their 3 titles. Toronto was in that range before making the move for Kawhi to get over the hump and win their title. Milwaukee was in that range for several years before making some moves to get over the top and winning their title. Even Phoenix was an up and coming team that had gone 8-0 in the bubble before adding Chris Paul and Jae Crowder to become a title contender. With some rare exceptions, stars don't go to bad teams and most bad teams stay bad for a long time. Minnesota is just barely escaping the bottom of the NBA after being in the toilet for almost 20 years. The Jazz are a far more attractive destination to free agents with Mitchell on the roster compared to if they started over.

As for the Knicks, every star player has been rumored to want to go to the Knicks, but very few go and the ones that do often regret it. Even if he is deadset on going to New York, trading him there would not make the Jazz better. A trade for Randle/Fournier and some picks doesn't make the Jazz better. Even if you are excited by top 10 picks, most likely the Jazz draft a Dante Exum or a Enes Kanter instead of another Mitchell. And even if they did hit a homerun and draft another Mitchell, what would be the point? You already have a 25 year old Mitchell now.

Mitchell is under contract for 3 more years which is eternity in the NBA. We are lightyears away from having the discussion of "oh we got to move him just to get something." Time for Danny Ainge to improve the roster around the star player, not destroy the good thing they have going.
I agree. My only hesitation would be what happened with Houston. Harden demanded they trade Chris Paul so he could play with Westbrook again and they do it in an attempt to keep him happy and he ends up demanding they move him anyway.

I would hate to move Gobert to try and keep Mitchell happy only for Mitchell to leave as soon as he can, or force his way out even earlier than his contract date and we lose both. Tim McMahon, who generally seems favorable to the Jazz, was on Zach Lowe's podcast and called the idea of Mitchell staying here long term "ridiculous".

But, I don't think we have a choice. Finding a guy like him in our market is so hard have to try and keep him happy and build around him for better or worse. Which will be hard. I love Rudy. McMahon also mentioned Dallas covets Rudy and would make a big play for him if he became available. Rudy and Luka would be a really fun PnR combo to watch.

Sure and I'd prefer not moving Gobert either, but unfortunately it does sound like a divorce is happening. The Houston trade does show why it is important to keep your star player. Houston was close to where the Jazz are now. A 50+ win team that was regularly in the second round. Now they are a trainwreck. Maybe Jalen Green turns out to be a star, but the rest of that roster is pretty bad. The Harden trade set them back at least 5 years.

Mr. Sneelock · Post by **Mr. Sneelock** » April 4th, 2022, 11:55 am

I think it might be time to tear it down. I don't really want to trade either Donovan or Rudy, but honestly, I think you trade both now while they are in their prime and you can get max value in return. This team as presently constructed is not championship caliber, and it obviously isn't working. With the two huge contracts, they are stuck in luxury tax hell. That is fine if you are a legit contender, but really bad if you aren't.

Trade anyone with any value for draft assets and prospects, and rebuild from the ground up. Let Danny Ainge do the drafting.

tysteve20 · Post by **tysteve20** » April 4th, 2022, 12:39 pm

Not so fun fact. If the jazz won all their game this season where that had a 10+ pt lead at one point, they would be sitting at 61 wins and just a half game back from PHX

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CaptainChaos · Post by **CaptainChaos** » April 5th, 2022, 12:18 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 4th, 2022, 11:55 am
I think it might be time to tear it down. I don't really want to trade either Donovan or Rudy, but honestly, I think you trade both now while they are in their prime and you can get max value in return. This team as presently constructed is not championship caliber, and it obviously isn't working. With the two huge contracts, they are stuck in luxury tax hell. That is fine if you are a legit contender, but really bad if you aren't.

Trade anyone with any value for draft assets and prospects, and rebuild from the ground up. Let Danny Ainge do the drafting.

I think its worth moving on from Mitchell this offseason and trying a retool around Gobert for another year or two. You could do that and still trade Gobert for assets before his contract is up.
Seeing how bad the team has been lately it makes me wonder if getting rid a DL was a mistake. He allegedly did not like what Quin was doing at times, and those difficulties are apparent now. Although I think that trading for Conley was a huge mistake and if that was DL's doing they definitely did the right thing by letting him go.

Mr. Sneelock · Post by **Mr. Sneelock** » April 5th, 2022, 4:41 pm

aggies22 wrote: ↑
April 4th, 2022, 6:02 am

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑
April 3rd, 2022, 8:39 am
The Jazz have really outdone themselves lately.

I miss the Millers. BYU Ryan sucks.
They could not have sold the team to a bigger tool.

I hate BYU too, but I actually like the direction he is taking the Jazz. The culture he is creating will definitely appeal to players which is what is needed, especially in a small market.

I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but if you are referring to his somewhat liberal politics, and you are offended by liberal politics, then perhaps the NBA isn't right for you, and you may not be in the NBA's target demographic.

SwaggieAggie · Post by **SwaggieAggie** » April 5th, 2022, 4:58 pm

This doesn't get talked about enough, but I genuinely believe that Royce O'Neale is the worst starter of all playoff teams (seeds 1-10, east and west). Someone tell me, would he honestly start on any other playoff team?

Juancho Hernangomez (a trade throw-in) and then Danuel House, a COVID relief 10-day signing who was teamless, are proving to be our best perimeter defenders. Unless we really need to tear it down with Mitchell or Gobert because they are "unsalvageable," we at the very least need to improve, even if it's just a little, at the wing position.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » April 5th, 2022, 10:50 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 4:41 pm
I hate BYU too, but I actually like the direction he is taking the Jazz. The culture he is creating will definitely appeal to players which is what is needed, especially in a small market.

I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but if you are referring to his somewhat liberal politics, and you are offended by liberal politics, then perhaps the NBA isn't right for you, and you may not be in the NBA's target demographic.

Most of Utah may not be the target demographic. The Jazz will leave Utah before the Jazz change Utah.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » April 5th, 2022, 10:53 pm

SwaggieAggie wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 4:58 pm
This doesn't get talked about enough, but I genuinely believe that Royce O'Neale is the worst starter of all playoff teams (seeds 1-10, east and west). Someone tell me, would he honestly start on any other playoff team?

Juancho Hernangomez (a trade throw-in) and then Danuel House, a COVID relief 10-day signing who was teamless, are proving to be our best perimeter defenders. Unless we really need to tear it down with Mitchell or Gobert because they are "unsalvageable," we at the very least need to improve, even if it's just a little, at the wing position.

Royce is a liability. No one guards him, he doesn't even want to shoot most the time.

3rdGenAggie · Post by **3rdGenAggie** » April 6th, 2022, 8:47 am

brownjeans wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 10:50 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 4:41 pm
I hate BYU too, but I actually like the direction he is taking the Jazz. The culture he is creating will definitely appeal to players which is what is needed, especially in a small market.

I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but if you are referring to his somewhat liberal politics, and you are offended by liberal politics, then perhaps the NBA isn't right for you, and you may not be in the NBA's target demographic.
Most of Utah may not be the target demographic. The Jazz will leave Utah before the Jazz change Utah.

The target demographic is people with money to spend. The NBA has no morals when the rubber hits the road. They can espouse leftist morals today because it doesn't hurt the bottom line. Remember, this is a group that wouldn't even condemn Uyghur genocide in China and banned pro-Hong Kong sentiment from its arenas because it would cost them some money.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » April 6th, 2022, 9:49 am

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 8:47 am
The target demographic is people with money to spend. The NBA has no morals when the rubber hits the road. They can espouse leftist morals today because it doesn't hurt the bottom line. Remember, this is a group that wouldn't even condemn Uyghur genocide in China and banned pro-Hong Kong sentiment from its arenas because it would cost them some money.

Or maybe because they're so leftist that they support China's brand of communism? (Ominus music)

Nah, they're just greedy

SwaggieAggie · Post by **SwaggieAggie** » April 6th, 2022, 11:41 am

brownjeans wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 10:53 pm

SwaggieAggie wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 4:58 pm
This doesn't get talked about enough, but I genuinely believe that Royce O'Neale is the worst starter of all playoff teams (seeds 1-10, east and west). Someone tell me, would he honestly start on any other playoff team?

Juancho Hernangomez (a trade throw-in) and then Danuel House, a COVID relief 10-day signing who was teamless, are proving to be our best perimeter defenders. Unless we really need to tear it down with Mitchell or Gobert because they are "unsalvageable," we at the very least need to improve, even if it's just a little, at the wing position.
Royce is a liability. No one guards him, he doesn't even want to shoot most the time.

Warriors game - Royce -25, House +21
Grizzlies game - Royce -13, House +17

I mean, c'mon..

El Sapo · Post by **El Sapo** » April 6th, 2022, 11:48 am

Interesting article in my paper today discussing who the Warriors could beat w/o Curry. Mentioned the Jazz and Denver as the preferred teams to play if Curry is going to miss games early in the playoffs. Warriors will be able to feast on 3's against Gobert or the other big stiff with Denver.

According to the writer, the team they don't want at any point with or without Curry is Dallas.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » April 6th, 2022, 7:51 pm

El Sapo wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 11:48 am
Interesting article in my paper today discussing who the Warriors could beat w/o Curry. Mentioned the Jazz and Denver as the preferred teams to play if Curry is going to miss games early in the playoffs. Warriors will be able to feast on 3's against Gobert or the other big stiff with Denver.

According to the writer, the team they don't want at any point with or without Curry is Dallas.

Well, I can't see a scenario where the Warriors play Dallas - not until the Conference finals. The Warriors and Mavs are going to end up with 3 and 4 - which is which depends on the way things shake out the final few games. Either way, the Warrior won't play the Mavs.
I'm guessing the Mavs get 3 and the Warrior get 4.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 6th, 2022, 8:05 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 9:49 am

3rdGenAggie wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 8:47 am
The target demographic is people with money to spend. The NBA has no morals when the rubber hits the road. They can espouse leftist morals today because it doesn't hurt the bottom line. Remember, this is a group that wouldn't even condemn Uyghur genocide in China and banned pro-Hong Kong sentiment from its arenas because it would cost them some money.
Or maybe because they're so leftist that they support China's brand of communism? (Ominus music)

Nah, they're just greedy

China is a capitalist oligarchy that now has the second most billionaires in the world. Their brand of communism is dominating the globe in business.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 6th, 2022, 8:10 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 10:50 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 5th, 2022, 4:41 pm
I hate BYU too, but I actually like the direction he is taking the Jazz. The culture he is creating will definitely appeal to players which is what is needed, especially in a small market.

I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but if you are referring to his somewhat liberal politics, and you are offended by liberal politics, then perhaps the NBA isn't right for you, and you may not be in the NBA's target demographic.
Most of Utah may not be the target demographic. The Jazz will leave Utah before the Jazz change Utah.

Utah is changing on its own. The last Jazz owner wouldn't show Brokeback Mountain at his theaters, but then his family would start having pride nights each year at Jazz games. It wasn't because their family became more tolerant, but the state did.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 6th, 2022, 8:13 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 4th, 2022, 11:55 am
I think it might be time to tear it down. I don't really want to trade either Donovan or Rudy, but honestly, I think you trade both now while they are in their prime and you can get max value in return. This team as presently constructed is not championship caliber, and it obviously isn't working. With the two huge contracts, they are stuck in luxury tax hell. That is fine if you are a legit contender, but really bad if you aren't.

Trade anyone with any value for draft assets and prospects, and rebuild from the ground up. Let Danny Ainge do the drafting.

If there is a divorce, Rudy is gone. No way the Jazz trade a 25 year old superstar scorer with 3 years on his contract. Although the rumored Rudy trade to Dallas isn't very appealing. A couple of late first round picks and a few role players isn't going to replace Rudy.

3rdGenAggie · Post by **3rdGenAggie** » April 6th, 2022, 9:38 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 8:13 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote: ↑
April 4th, 2022, 11:55 am
I think it might be time to tear it down. I don't really want to trade either Donovan or Rudy, but honestly, I think you trade both now while they are in their prime and you can get max value in return. This team as presently constructed is not championship caliber, and it obviously isn't working. With the two huge contracts, they are stuck in luxury tax hell. That is fine if you are a legit contender, but really bad if you aren't.

Trade anyone with any value for draft assets and prospects, and rebuild from the ground up. Let Danny Ainge do the drafting.
If there is a divorce, Rudy is gone. No way the Jazz trade a 25 year old superstar scorer with 3 years on his contract. Although the rumored Rudy trade to Dallas isn't very appealing. A couple of late first round picks and a few role players isn't going to replace Rudy.

Yeah, Dallas would need to find a third team to provide some stuff the Jazz would actually want because Dallas doesn't have it.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » April 6th, 2022, 10:41 pm

OKC had three great players, chose to keep the one who was the worst at playing winning basketball.
If the Jazz keep Rudy, they will keep winning. If they trade Rudy, they'll be a lottery team.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 7th, 2022, 8:52 am

brownjeans wrote: ↑
April 6th, 2022, 10:41 pm
OKC had three great players, chose to keep the one who was the worst at playing winning basketball.
If the Jazz keep Rudy, they will keep winning. If they trade Rudy, they'll be a lottery team.

It depends what they get in return, but yeah I'm not a fan of trading Gobert or Mitchell unless you have to. You rarely get equal value for a star player. If they trade either, there is a good chance they are a lottery team next year. You need an elite scorer to win a championship though and Rudy is not that so if push comes to shove, Rudy needs to be the one that is traded.

El Sapo · Post by **El Sapo** » April 8th, 2022, 1:19 pm

Is it Rudy or is it the coaching? Teams are going to try to expose his weakness, isn't it up to the coach to try and counter that?

Against the Warriors a few days ago Jazz coaching kept Rudy in the paint and the Warriors had great looks from the perimeter. The game stayed close until the Warriors finally started hitting their wide open 3's.

Could be a good playoff strategy. Jazz trying to win v Warriors strength v strength. Don't show your hand early. Next time they meet, Jazz could get Gobert on the perimeter or limit his play and play a smaller lineup.

Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 8th, 2022, 2:26 pm

El Sapo wrote: ↑
April 8th, 2022, 1:19 pm
Is it Rudy or is it the coaching? Teams are going to try to expose his weakness, isn't it up to the coach to try and counter that?

Against the Warriors a few days ago Jazz coaching kept Rudy in the paint and the Warriors had great looks from the perimeter. The game stayed close until the Warriors finally started hitting their wide open 3's.

Could be a good playoff strategy. Jazz trying to win v Warriors strength v strength. Don't show your hand early. Next time they meet, Jazz could get Gobert on the perimeter or limit his play and play a smaller lineup.

A first round exit and Snyder is gone.

tysteve20 · Post by **tysteve20** » April 9th, 2022, 11:13 am

I’m just gonna tell myself last nights 4th Q meltdown was due to Ryan smith coming down to the bench after Q3 and told Quinn that we are shooting for the 6th seed and needed to lose.

SSaggie · Post by **SSaggie** » April 9th, 2022, 9:35 pm

I hope the Jazz trade Mitchell. I used to love watching the Jazz, but I have all but quit watching this year because I watch Mitchell dribble and dribble and then shoot a stupid deep three or a contested jumper. It is Mitchell vs the opposing team.

It drives me nuts when I check the box score and Mitchell shoots 4 times as many shots as Gobert, or anyone else on the team. Yeah Mitchell is skilled and fake charismatic, but I think his chemistry throws things off.

Trade Mitchell and get some team oriented basketball players. Rudy is underrated and pretty low maintenance for an NBA player. I think if he complains about Mitchell, he has merit to his complaints. Look at the discrepancies in shots (yeah I know Gobert doesn't create shots, but the discrepancy is huge) . Mitchell time after time goes for his own stats instead of getting it to a sometimes open Gobert.

Buuutt the NBA is an entertainment business and Mitchell is a flashy and entertaining player. Little kids love a short and flashy guard.

My pipe dream is to have Luka instead of Mitchell, or anyone else on the jazz lol. Oh man that would be cool, especially with Rudy. I know Harden is highly disliked, but I think it would be awesome to have him with Rudy too. Maybe southern exposure could satisfy hardens gentleman club needs.

Ok, irrational rant over. TLDNR, I don't care for Mitchell.

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slcagg · Post by **slcagg** » April 9th, 2022, 9:42 pm

Harden has lost his step. You don’t trade him for a young star

dirtnsnow · Post by **dirtnsnow** » April 10th, 2022, 7:50 am

SSaggie wrote: ↑
April 9th, 2022, 9:35 pm
I hope the Jazz trade Mitchell. I used to love watching the Jazz, but I have all but quit watching this year because I watch Mitchell dribble and dribble and then shoot a stupid deep three or a contested jumper. It is Mitchell vs the opposing team.

It drives me nuts when I check the box score and Mitchell shoots 4 times as many shots as Gobert, or anyone else on the team. Yeah Mitchell is skilled and fake charismatic, but I think his chemistry throws things off.

Trade Mitchell and get some team oriented basketball players. Rudy is underrated and pretty low maintenance for an NBA player. I think if he complains about Mitchell, he has merit to his complaints. Look at the discrepancies in shots (yeah I know Gobert doesn't create shots, but the discrepancy is huge) . Mitchell time after time goes for his own stats instead of getting it to a sometimes open Gobert.

Buuutt the NBA is an entertainment business and Mitchell is a flashy and entertaining player. Little kids love a short and flashy guard.

My pipe dream is to have Luka instead of Mitchell, or anyone else on the jazz lol. Oh man that would be cool, especially with Rudy. I know Harden is highly disliked, but I think it would be awesome to have him with Rudy too. Maybe southern exposure could satisfy hardens gentleman club needs.

Ok, irrational rant over. TLDNR, I don't care for Mitchell.

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While I understand your complaint, I have absolutely no idea why you would want harden. His game is your complaint on steroids.

SSaggie · Post by **SSaggie** » April 10th, 2022, 3:21 pm

dirtnsnow wrote:
SSaggie wrote: ↑
April 9th, 2022, 9:35 pm
I hope the Jazz trade Mitchell. I used to love watching the Jazz, but I have all but quit watching this year because I watch Mitchell dribble and dribble and then shoot a stupid deep three or a contested jumper. It is Mitchell vs the opposing team.

It drives me nuts when I check the box score and Mitchell shoots 4 times as many shots as Gobert, or anyone else on the team. Yeah Mitchell is skilled and fake charismatic, but I think his chemistry throws things off.

Trade Mitchell and get some team oriented basketball players. Rudy is underrated and pretty low maintenance for an NBA player. I think if he complains about Mitchell, he has merit to his complaints. Look at the discrepancies in shots (yeah I know Gobert doesn't create shots, but the discrepancy is huge) . Mitchell time after time goes for his own stats instead of getting it to a sometimes open Gobert.

Buuutt the NBA is an entertainment business and Mitchell is a flashy and entertaining player. Little kids love a short and flashy guard.

My pipe dream is to have Luka instead of Mitchell, or anyone else on the jazz lol. Oh man that would be cool, especially with Rudy. I know Harden is highly disliked, but I think it would be awesome to have him with Rudy too. Maybe southern exposure could satisfy hardens gentleman club needs.

Ok, irrational rant over. TLDNR, I don't care for Mitchell.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
While I understand your complaint, I have absolutely no idea why you would want harden. His game is your complaint on steroids.

You have a very good point on Harden haha. However he does get a good number of assists when he doesn't take 40 shots in a game.

I am one of the few, maybe the only person, who likes hardens style. I want him on the Jazz because I like watching him, it isn't necessarily a super logical want ha. I think he is very smart and has a bit of wizardry to his game. But he is often lazy and a diva.

Yeah I know I will get roasted for liking Harden, but to each his own. Everyone who doesn't like Harden has valid points that I can't argue against lol

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Aggie formerly in Hawaii · Post by **Aggie formerly in Hawaii** » April 10th, 2022, 3:59 pm

SSaggie wrote: ↑
April 9th, 2022, 9:35 pm
I hope the Jazz trade Mitchell. I used to love watching the Jazz, but I have all but quit watching this year because I watch Mitchell dribble and dribble and then shoot a stupid deep three or a contested jumper. It is Mitchell vs the opposing team.

It drives me nuts when I check the box score and Mitchell shoots 4 times as many shots as Gobert, or anyone else on the team. Yeah Mitchell is skilled and fake charismatic, but I think his chemistry throws things off.

Trade Mitchell and get some team oriented basketball players. Rudy is underrated and pretty low maintenance for an NBA player. I think if he complains about Mitchell, he has merit to his complaints. Look at the discrepancies in shots (yeah I know Gobert doesn't create shots, but the discrepancy is huge) . Mitchell time after time goes for his own stats instead of getting it to a sometimes open Gobert.

Buuutt the NBA is an entertainment business and Mitchell is a flashy and entertaining player. Little kids love a short and flashy guard.

My pipe dream is to have Luka instead of Mitchell, or anyone else on the jazz lol. Oh man that would be cool, especially with Rudy. I know Harden is highly disliked, but I think it would be awesome to have him with Rudy too. Maybe southern exposure could satisfy hardens gentleman club needs.

Ok, irrational rant over. TLDNR, I don't care for Mitchell.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

There is a zero percent chance Luka ever plays for the Jazz. Trading Mitchell makes the Jazz worse unless there is a disgruntled star out there who is demanding out of his deal similar to when the Raptors got Kawhi for Derozan. It has to come into account that star free agents do not want to play in Utah and the only thing that can get even B level players here is by having stars on the team such as Mitchell.
Trading for draft picks is always a huge risk. Since Mitchell was taken 13th in 2017, how many players drafted in the last 4 years have been better than Mitchell? Not many. Yeah they could draft another Mitchell(although that case is weird since they already have Mitchell under contract for 3 more years) but more than likely they draft an Exum or a Kanter.

BamaAggie · Post by **BamaAggie** » April 10th, 2022, 5:59 pm

Part of me wants the Jazz to go out in a first round sweep just to put pressure on a roster overhaul, but just for discussion sake tonights game in Portland is interesting. Dallas, GSW and Denver all play at the same time. The mavs and warriors can finish 3/4 and Jazz/nuggets will be 5/6 but a first round matchup with the (healthy) Warriors team is about the worst scenario possible for the Jazz. Maybe they tank tonight to get into a 3/6 series with the Mavs…

tysteve20 · Post by **tysteve20** » April 10th, 2022, 10:44 pm

Looks like we are locked into the 4/5 with Dallas. And Luka left their game early tonight with an injury.

SSaggie · Post by **SSaggie** » April 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
SSaggie wrote: ↑
April 9th, 2022, 9:35 pm
I hope the Jazz trade Mitchell. I used to love watching the Jazz, but I have all but quit watching this year because I watch Mitchell dribble and dribble and then shoot a stupid deep three or a contested jumper. It is Mitchell vs the opposing team.

It drives me nuts when I check the box score and Mitchell shoots 4 times as many shots as Gobert, or anyone else on the team. Yeah Mitchell is skilled and fake charismatic, but I think his chemistry throws things off.

Trade Mitchell and get some team oriented basketball players. Rudy is underrated and pretty low maintenance for an NBA player. I think if he complains about Mitchell, he has merit to his complaints. Look at the discrepancies in shots (yeah I know Gobert doesn't create shots, but the discrepancy is huge) . Mitchell time after time goes for his own stats instead of getting it to a sometimes open Gobert.

Buuutt the NBA is an entertainment business and Mitchell is a flashy and entertaining player. Little kids love a short and flashy guard.

My pipe dream is to have Luka instead of Mitchell, or anyone else on the jazz lol. Oh man that would be cool, especially with Rudy. I know Harden is highly disliked, but I think it would be awesome to have him with Rudy too. Maybe southern exposure could satisfy hardens gentleman club needs.

Ok, irrational rant over. TLDNR, I don't care for Mitchell.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
There is a zero percent chance Luka ever plays for the Jazz. Trading Mitchell makes the Jazz worse unless there is a disgruntled star out there who is demanding out of his deal similar to when the Raptors got Kawhi for Derozan. It has to come into account that star free agents do not want to play in Utah and the only thing that can get even B level players here is by having stars on the team such as Mitchell.
Trading for draft picks is always a huge risk. Since Mitchell was taken 13th in 2017, how many players drafted in the last 4 years have been better than Mitchell? Not many. Yeah they could draft another Mitchell(although that case is weird since they already have Mitchell under contract for 3 more years) but more than likely they draft an Exum or a Kanter.

Yeah I agree that Mitchell is likely the best guard the Jazz can get, and from an entertainment perspective, Mitchell hits the nail on the head.

From a basketball/winning perspective, I hypothesize that Mitchell (although he is very skilled and competitive) may have a style that doesn't mesh with his teammates as optimally as possible.

Why do I think this? He is very ball dominant and takes significantly more shots than anyone else on the team. Additionally, the jazz obviously have 4th quarter struggles. Much of their struggles in the 4th (this is absolutely recency bias) come from hero ball and not having good ball movement/team oriented offense. Mitchell is as guilty as anyone else when it comes to hero ball in the 4th quarter and blowing leads.

Basically I think that chemistry sometimes matters more than skill level. Exhibit A is the Lakers. Three future hall of famers (you don't get much more talent than that) and they can't even make a play in game. They were much better when they had less "talent" and more chemistry with "lesser" players.

But who knows, maybe my perceived lack of chemistry within the Jazz isn't rooted in Mitchell. Could be Gobert or Mike or Bojan or whoever. But I would strongly guess it is the player with the highest usage that affects the chemistry more than anyone else.

But I admit i am very biased because I don't really love watching Mitchell's style of play. That is the true iceberg beneath my hypothesis. Anytime Mitchell does something less than perfect l, I get confirmation bias.

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