Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

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Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by QuackAttackAggie » October 27th, 2021, 11:05 am

Jazz are looking great so far. I think we should see similar success to last year, but I am worried about teams that can shoot spreading us out like they did last year in the playoffs to isolate Rudy.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by thegreendalegelf » October 27th, 2021, 3:52 pm

QuackAttackAggie wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 11:05 am
Jazz are looking great so far. I think we should see similar success to last year, but I am worried about teams that can shoot spreading us out like they did last year in the playoffs to isolate Rudy.
Hopefully, the addition of Rudy Gay allows us to handle the small ball better. Also hopefully Rudy Gobert is able to dominate the paint vs small ball better so they can't afford to go small.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by dirtnsnow » October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm

I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.


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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Intermeddler » October 28th, 2021, 11:50 am

dirtnsnow wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm
I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.
Agree to an extent. They added two guys who could potentially play small ball 5. Paschall has done well on defense . So far, the swap of Niang and Favors for Paschall and Whiteside has been a big upgrade.

I think we still need another good perimeter defender. I wish Oni could become that guy.

But, I also think that we would have been holding the trophy last year if Mitchell and Conley were both healthy throughout the playoffs so maybe I am giving the roster too much credit.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by GoldcoastAggie » October 28th, 2021, 11:55 am

dirtnsnow wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm
I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.
The Jazz have to stay perfectly healthy to compete in the playoffs. If Gobert, Mitchell, Conley or Bogdanivich get injured they are done. They don't have the firepower from a real superstar to make up for it. Mitchell is great but he can't put the team on his back like some guys can.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by slcagg » October 28th, 2021, 12:14 pm

GoldcoastAggie wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 11:55 am
dirtnsnow wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm
I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.
The Jazz have to stay perfectly healthy to compete in the playoffs. If Gobert, Mitchell, Conley or Bogdanivich get injured they are done. They don't have the firepower from a real superstar to make up for it. Mitchell is great but he can't put the team on his back like some guys can.
I mean isn't that why Phoenix came from the west last year? Pretty much any of the other top teams had all stars injured hampering their progress. Making it through the playoffs can partly be attributed to good health.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by GoldcoastAggie » October 28th, 2021, 12:58 pm

slcagg wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 12:14 pm
GoldcoastAggie wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 11:55 am
dirtnsnow wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm
I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.
The Jazz have to stay perfectly healthy to compete in the playoffs. If Gobert, Mitchell, Conley or Bogdanivich get injured they are done. They don't have the firepower from a real superstar to make up for it. Mitchell is great but he can't put the team on his back like some guys can.
I mean isn't that why Phoenix came from the west last year? Pretty much any of the other top teams had all stars injured hampering their progress. Making it through the playoffs can partly be attributed to good health.
Yes but I would argue the difference is that the Jazz have 4-5 guys with Clarkson that they can't afford to lose and most other playoff teams have 2-3.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by CaptainChaos » October 28th, 2021, 1:50 pm

slcagg wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 12:14 pm
GoldcoastAggie wrote:
October 28th, 2021, 11:55 am
dirtnsnow wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 7:45 pm
I'm kind of expecting what we've seen. Great regular season, but no 'next gear' in the playoffs. First or second round exit. It's frustrating, because they were exposed in the playoffs, and didn't do enough to address their shortcomings, in my opinion. Instead, they double down on their identity by signing Whiteside.
The Jazz have to stay perfectly healthy to compete in the playoffs. If Gobert, Mitchell, Conley or Bogdanivich get injured they are done. They don't have the firepower from a real superstar to make up for it. Mitchell is great but he can't put the team on his back like some guys can.
I mean isn't that why Phoenix came from the west last year? Pretty much any of the other top teams had all stars injured hampering their progress. Making it through the playoffs can partly be attributed to good health.
I'm pretty sure Phoenix had a few injuries to deal with in the playoffs. Weren't Booker and Paul both injured at times?



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by CaptainChaos » October 28th, 2021, 1:54 pm

thegreendalegelf wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 3:52 pm
QuackAttackAggie wrote:
October 27th, 2021, 11:05 am
Jazz are looking great so far. I think we should see similar success to last year, but I am worried about teams that can shoot spreading us out like they did last year in the playoffs to isolate Rudy.
Hopefully, the addition of Rudy Gay allows us to handle the small ball better. Also hopefully Rudy Gobert is able to dominate the paint vs small ball better so they can't afford to go small.
Hopefully the other four guys out there with Gobert can play some form of defense in the playoffs. If they can't stay in front of their man perhaps they can play the passing lanes or something instead. I know Conley gets a lot of credit for being a good defender, but I think it must be based on reputation from many many years ago. I have not seen anything impressive from him on the defensive end since being in Utah.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by brownjeans » October 29th, 2021, 7:11 pm

I agree with Chaos. Rudy Gay won't help the other four players stay in front of their man when spread out any better than Gobert did.
They just need to pray they don't run into a team that has five guys who can drive and shoot threes.
Or hope that the reason the D was so bad was because of leg injuries to Conley and Mitchell



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by LoveMyAggies » October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm

brownjeans wrote:
October 29th, 2021, 7:11 pm
I agree with Chaos. Rudy Gay won't help the other four players stay in front of their man when spread out any better than Gobert did.
They just need to pray they don't run into a team that has five guys who can drive and shoot threes.
Or hope that the reason the D was so bad was because of leg injuries to Conley and Mitchell
This is correct, however, you have completely dismissed the fact that Mitchell and Conley were reduced to a level of play below NBA starters during the playoffs when their injuries took place. Look, be realistic, players either improve and become better or they don't. I think Conley's ceiling was 2-3 years ago, while Mitchell still has plenty of untapped potential.

Defensively I think it's obtuse to say our team overall is worse, We don't know the new dynamics of Whiteside, Pascall, Gay, and Butler added to the mix.

Clearly the deficiencies last year involved no stretch 5 on the Jazz's bench, while now they have Pascall and Gay. Clearly, there was no true point guard to back up Conley, can Bulter fill that role by the playoffs. I figure if he isn't starting to, then the Jazz should make a move for a backup serviceable point guard.

The last piece of this which needs to be figured out is the adjustments to other coach's adjustments by Snyder. It could take him 5 years to figure it out, I hope it doesn't take that long, because by then Mitchell might want out.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by brownjeans » October 31st, 2021, 3:39 pm

LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
brownjeans wrote:
October 29th, 2021, 7:11 pm
I agree with Chaos. Rudy Gay won't help the other four players stay in front of their man when spread out any better than Gobert did.
They just need to pray they don't run into a team that has five guys who can drive and shoot threes.
Or hope that the reason the D was so bad was because of leg injuries to Conley and Mitchell
...you have completely dismissed the fact that Mitchell and Conley were reduced to a level of play below NBA starters during the playoffs when their injuries took place.
I did? (see bold text)
LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
Defensively I think it's obtuse to say our team overall is worse, We don't know the new dynamics of Whiteside, Pascall, Gay, and Butler added to the mix.
I didn't say it was worse, I questioned whether the Jazz improved their perimeter D problem, their ability to stay between their man and the basket when the oppenent plays 5 out. I think it's a valid question. I don't think any of the guys they added are thought of as great perimeter defenders.
LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
Clearly the deficiencies last year involved no stretch 5 on the Jazz's bench, while now they have Pascall and Gay.
I don't think that is clear. If you put a stretch 5 on the floor, it means you take Gobert off the floor. The Jazz have proven to be a terrible team with Gobert is off the floor. The +/- stats are clear about that. The Jazz are terrible without Gobert. Needing a stretch 5 isn't nearly as important as getting the other four guys needing to stay in front of their guy.
LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
Clearly, there was no true point guard to back up Conley, can Bulter fill thIat role by the playoffs. I figure if he isn't starting to, then the Jazz should make a move for a backup serviceable point guard.
This was a problem, sure, but the main issue with the Clippers was staying in front of guys. Conley is thought of as a good defender, but he's old. If we can get him to and through the playoffs healthy, it might be a big help with the problem.
LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
The last piece of this which needs to be figured out is the adjustments to other coach's adjustments by Snyder. It could take him 5 years to figure it out, I hope it doesn't take that long, because by then Mitchell might want out.
IMO, this is a non issue. Snyder is not the problem - far from it.

Maybe the main problem with the Clippers was that Mitchel and Conley couldn't move because of their leg injuries. Maybe they need to be better at staying in front of their guy. Maybe we'll see a meaningful difference with these guys in their ability to defend on the perimeter. What I'm saying is that the Jazz didn't make any personnel changes that says, "we saw the problem vs the Clippers, and we've addressed it."



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by CaptainChaos » November 1st, 2021, 1:57 pm

LoveMyAggies wrote:
October 31st, 2021, 2:38 pm
brownjeans wrote:
October 29th, 2021, 7:11 pm
I agree with Chaos. Rudy Gay won't help the other four players stay in front of their man when spread out any better than Gobert did.
They just need to pray they don't run into a team that has five guys who can drive and shoot threes.
Or hope that the reason the D was so bad was because of leg injuries to Conley and Mitchell
This is correct, however, you have completely dismissed the fact that Mitchell and Conley were reduced to a level of play below NBA starters during the playoffs when their injuries took place. Look, be realistic, players either improve and become better or they don't. I think Conley's ceiling was 2-3 years ago, while Mitchell still has plenty of untapped potential.

Defensively I think it's obtuse to say our team overall is worse, We don't know the new dynamics of Whiteside, Pascall, Gay, and Butler added to the mix.

Clearly the deficiencies last year involved no stretch 5 on the Jazz's bench, while now they have Pascall and Gay. Clearly, there was no true point guard to back up Conley, can Bulter fill that role by the playoffs. I figure if he isn't starting to, then the Jazz should make a move for a backup serviceable point guard.

The last piece of this which needs to be figured out is the adjustments to other coach's adjustments by Snyder. It could take him 5 years to figure it out, I hope it doesn't take that long, because by then Mitchell might want out.
When the jazz have faced teams that can put 5 players on the court that can drive, dish, and shoot threes the jazz have maybe one player that can defend against that. I don't think this problem is resolved by simply having a small ball 5 like Rudy Gay or Pascall. I do think the Jazz seem to be better at staying on front of their man and not just relying on Gobert to make the stop in the paint which is good to see, but he jazz were also good at it in spurts last year.

I don't think Snyder is to blame for the jazz issues necessarily, but the things that give me pause is that it took a 14 year veteran 2.5 years to get up to speed on the jazz offense, and Mitchell must be reluctant to play point, otherwise I don't know why else he isn't already. Unfortunately this also means that I don't know how a rookie like Butler (as great as I hope he can be) can even stand a chance of running the jazz offense.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by slcagg » November 1st, 2021, 2:06 pm

Western conference player of the week…Rudy
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Mr. Sneelock » November 2nd, 2021, 4:23 pm

slcagg wrote:
November 1st, 2021, 2:06 pm
Western conference player of the week…Rudy
Rudy is absolutely killing it so far this year. 16.3 pts, 17.2 reb, 1.7 blk and a PER of 28.39.

People accuse him of being a one-way player, but his PPG average is 58th in the league, well above average, and top 10 at his position. His FG% is 3rd in the league. He shoots 8.3 FT per game and is over 70% on FT shooting for the first time in his career at 72%, which is definitely passable.

His rebounding is first in the league by a country mile.

His blocks per game is top 10 in the league, but it should be noted that he doesn't hunt blocks nearly as much as he used to. He just plays very solid help and on-ball defense.

His PER is top 10 in the league.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by 3rdGenAggie » November 2nd, 2021, 11:08 pm

Rudy is and will continue to be the most underrated player in the NBA by fans and national media.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Mr. Sneelock » November 3rd, 2021, 10:01 am

3rdGenAggie wrote:
November 2nd, 2021, 11:08 pm
Rudy is and will continue to be the most underrated player in the NBA by fans and national media.
That is because he doesn't score 30 ppg and shoot 30 foot 3 pointers.

Those that know basketball know.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by CaptainChaos » November 3rd, 2021, 9:36 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
3rdGenAggie wrote:
November 2nd, 2021, 11:08 pm
Rudy is and will continue to be the most underrated player in the NBA by fans and national media.
That is because he doesn't score 30 ppg and shoot 30 foot 3 pointers.

Those that know basketball know.
I once had a professor tell me that the basketball court is too small. He had like a whole statistical analysis of how big it “should” be. This was like 15 years ago he was for-telling about the rise of the 3 pointer and the 30ft shot, now I can’t unsee that the court really probably is too small.


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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Mr. Sneelock » November 4th, 2021, 10:28 am

David Locke was on the radio yesterday talking about how Rudy is a great litmus test to determine whether someone you are talking to actually understands basketball and what they are talking about. I agree 100%

I'll just say it. Rudy Gobert is absolutely a top 10 most valuable player in the NBA, and he is easily the Jazz MVP. If the Jazz started shopping him, I bet fans and media would be shocked at the offers the Jazz would get. I don't think there are 10 players in the league I would trade him for straight up.

The entire offense runs through Rudy and is designed around the pick and roll that is almost impossible to defend. The Jazz offense is historically good, and Rudy is probably the single biggest reason for that. He may not do all of the scoring, but make no mistake. He is a very good offensive player. He might be one of the best pick and roll big men in the history of the NBA. That isn't exactly hyperbole. He seriously might be in the top 10 all time. For example - Rudy comes up and sets an absolutely devastating screen for Don or Conley or Ingles (or whoever). The defensive guard (the "pickee") has to decide whether to go under or over. If he goes under, Rudy is exceptionally good at turning and absolutely burying the defender giving the guard a wide open 3. If he goes over, the screen is so good that the defender is already way behind the guard and has virtually no chance to recover. Then one of two things will happen, and all the Jazz have to do is read the defense and make the right play. Rudy rolls to the hoop, and if the defensive big goes with him, that leaves a huge gap in the middle of the floor with the defensive guard hopelessly behind. The ball handler then drives around the screen and fills that huge gap. If the defensive big stays on Rudy, the defense has to either (1) give up a shot at the rim by the Jazz guards who are great finishers (or foul), or (2) the defense has to collapse to help. If they collapse, then there are guys wide open in the corner. The ball-handler then kicks it out and the defense starts to scramble. Maybe there is a wide open 3 or maybe they make an extra pass. Either way, chances are the Jazz are going to get a wide open look. And when teams try to adjust and stay home on the corners, Mitchell, Conley, or Clarkson have a field day at the rim (usually happens sometime in the 3rd quarter. If the big cheats up to fill the gap left by the screen to avoid Mitchell scoring at the rim, then Rudy is wide open for the lob. Defenses have to pick their poison. You can see teams try to adjust all game, and the Jazz are very good at reading the defense and making the right play.

And he is probably in the top 5 all time best defensive players. Seriously. Other teams try to do the same pick and roll thing against the Jazz and it doesn't work. Rudy both fills the gap left by going over the screen, AND protects the rim at the same time. Opposing guards go around the screen and run face to face with Rudy. They can try to dump it off to the rolling pick man, but Rudy recovers. It is really incredible to watch. Nobody in the world does it better.

People that think he isn't a max contract guy because he "only" scores 16 ppg don't have any idea what they are talking about.

And for those that complain that the Clippers exposed the Jazz last year and blame it on Rudy don't understand what they were looking at. That had nothing to do with Rudy, and everything to do with the guards being unable to stay with their man defensively. Rudy covers a LOT of defensive warts, but as good as he is, he can't guard his man in the corner AND cover for guys when they get beat off the dribble, but he actually did it quite well considering that is virtually impossible.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by SSaggie » November 12th, 2021, 2:39 pm

Great post. From my understanding, it is part of the plan for the guards to get beat off the dribble. The guard plays up close on the perimeter, preventing an efficient three point shot. But playing close creates the risk of getting beat off the dribble, but that is okay because Gobert is right behind them waiting for the drive and preventing the efficient close range shot. The main weakness with this strategy is against teams with 5 out.

Although you do have a good point, this system does not work effectively against a team with five out, in order to defend 5 out, the guards need to stay in front of their man.

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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by QuackAttackAggie » November 18th, 2021, 9:39 pm

Jazz look like they turned a corner with Gay today especially in the third.


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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Mr. Sneelock » November 19th, 2021, 9:21 am

What a great debut for Rudy Gay. I am sure he won't be that efficient all season, but if he can give us something even close to what we saw, we'll be in great shape.
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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » November 22nd, 2021, 9:40 pm

Tough loss. Hard to win when your superstar shoots like that combined with Desmond Bane playing like Kevin Durant. Also, the love affair for Rudy Gay may have been a bit premature. We'll see.

So far the Jazz have really struggled with any decent team on the schedule. The Bucks might be their best win and the Bucks were without Middleton and Holiday that game.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Mr. Sneelock » November 23rd, 2021, 10:24 am

The Jazz always start slow for some reason and get better as the season progresses. I think we'll see that again this year.


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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » November 23rd, 2021, 2:51 pm

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
November 23rd, 2021, 10:24 am
The Jazz always start slow for some reason and get better as the season progresses. I think we'll see that again this year.
Yes and I'm sure we will, but this is slower than last year. Last year they had a slow about first 8 games then were rocking and rolling until the Conley/DMitch injuries.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by Intermeddler » November 23rd, 2021, 5:14 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
November 23rd, 2021, 2:51 pm
Mr. Sneelock wrote:
November 23rd, 2021, 10:24 am
The Jazz always start slow for some reason and get better as the season progresses. I think we'll see that again this year.
Yes and I'm sure we will, but this is slower than last year. Last year they had a slow about first 8 games then were rocking and rolling until the Conley/DMitch injuries.
I think last year we were like 4-4 and then got to 24-6 or something like that.

I saw a tweet last night that we are 11-6 through 17 games and were 13-4 through 17 last year, but didn't lose our 6th game until game 30 or 31 or something like that.



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Re: Utah Jazz 2021-22 thread

Post by LoveMyAggies » November 24th, 2021, 11:24 am

I think as long as the Jazz can figure out their match-ups, records aren't as important right now. As for last night, you have to put the Loss on Mitchell and Snyder. It's not the end of the world either, If I were in the huddle, should have done a pick and roll or pick and pop on the last play with Mitchell driving to the hole with Bogy, he was stroking it late. No reason to lose on a jumper with Mitchell when he's clearly not in rhythm.



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