John hartwell interview

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John hartwell interview

Post by slcagg » June 30th, 2021, 8:15 pm

Discusses some of the recent changes and really the extra money going to the athletes. Two things that stood out to me.

1. Companies are going to be spend a certain amount for advertisements etc. if some of that now goes to athletes that cuts into what ends up with administration.

2. The divide between the have and have not will further increase

He wasn’t all that positive.

https://1280thezone.com/hans-scotty-joh ... -06-30-21/



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by brownjeans » July 1st, 2021, 12:14 am

Schools should get out of the business of sports
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by Yossarian » July 1st, 2021, 12:50 am

brownjeans wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 12:14 am
Schools should get out of the business of sports
Précisément.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by slcagg » July 1st, 2021, 5:18 am

brownjeans wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 12:14 am
Schools should get out of the business of sports
I think for a lot of schools it will come down to that.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by Full » July 1st, 2021, 7:54 am

It will end up with the rich getting richer, and with the transfer rule could be even worse for Utah State. I don’t think there is anything to stop businesses from paying recruits if they play for the right school. We have one example:



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by Aggie84025 » July 1st, 2021, 11:11 am

Full wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 7:54 am
It will end up with the rich getting richer, and with the transfer rule could be even worse for Utah State. I don’t think there is anything to stop businesses from paying recruits if they play for the right school. We have one example:
This will be especially true for teams like USU that are in a small market and less businesses that will probably be willing to promote student athletes.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » July 1st, 2021, 11:47 am

Aggie84025 wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:11 am
Full wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 7:54 am
It will end up with the rich getting richer, and with the transfer rule could be even worse for Utah State. I don’t think there is anything to stop businesses from paying recruits if they play for the right school. We have one example:
This will be especially true for teams like USU that are in a small market and less businesses that will probably be willing to promote student athletes.
Double-edged sword, I think. USU is the only show in town; that’s who everyone supports. Salt lake has the jazz, real, several minor league teams, and other stuff that businesses sponsor. Not saying the U won’t get more support, cause they will, but they are going to get even more trashed in recruiting by Washington, Oregon, USC, etc.

Ah well, things are really gonna get shook up. The arms race will be entertaining tho.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by 3rdGenAggie » July 1st, 2021, 11:48 am

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:47 am
Aggie84025 wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:11 am
Full wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 7:54 am
It will end up with the rich getting richer, and with the transfer rule could be even worse for Utah State. I don’t think there is anything to stop businesses from paying recruits if they play for the right school. We have one example:
This will be especially true for teams like USU that are in a small market and less businesses that will probably be willing to promote student athletes.
Double-edged sword, I think. USU is the only show in town; that’s who everyone supports. Salt lake has the jazz, real, several minor league teams, and other stuff that businesses sponsor. Not saying the U won’t get more support, cause they will, but they are going to get even more trashed in recruiting by Washington, Oregon, USC, etc.

Ah well, things are really gonna get shook up. The arms race will be entertaining tho.
I think it's going to be HUGE for BYU. It would be absolutely nothing financially to Ryan Smith to commit a million bucks a year in the form of ten $100K endorsement contracts to the right 5* recruits if that's something he wanted to do. And he's only the richest out of a cadre of rich donors they have.


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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by brownjeans » July 1st, 2021, 1:10 pm

slcagg wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 5:18 am
brownjeans wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 12:14 am
Schools should get out of the business of sports
I think for a lot of schools it will come down to that.
At some point, it may make sense for even large schools. Imagine a group approaches the best 30 programs in the country. Here's the pitch to the school:
We get the rights, colors, logo, for the Southern Cal Trojans (for example). We take over all operating costs of the football team, assume all risk and liability. And you sign a non compete.
You get cash up front and royalties, to never worry about NCAA ever again, to focus on education, total freedom from liability.

I think we may get there - just a question of the $$$$$$



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » July 1st, 2021, 2:12 pm

3rdGenAggie wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:48 am
flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:47 am
Aggie84025 wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 11:11 am
Full wrote:
July 1st, 2021, 7:54 am
It will end up with the rich getting richer, and with the transfer rule could be even worse for Utah State. I don’t think there is anything to stop businesses from paying recruits if they play for the right school. We have one example:
This will be especially true for teams like USU that are in a small market and less businesses that will probably be willing to promote student athletes.
Double-edged sword, I think. USU is the only show in town; that’s who everyone supports. Salt lake has the jazz, real, several minor league teams, and other stuff that businesses sponsor. Not saying the U won’t get more support, cause they will, but they are going to get even more trashed in recruiting by Washington, Oregon, USC, etc.

Ah well, things are really gonna get shook up. The arms race will be entertaining tho.
I think it's going to be HUGE for BYU. It would be absolutely nothing financially to Ryan Smith to commit a million bucks a year in the form of ten $100K endorsement contracts to the right 5* recruits if that's something he wanted to do. And he's only the richest out of a cadre of rich donors they have.
Agreed. The multi-level marketers will use a small amount of their plunder in this manner and dominate. I still think BYU athletics is in line to get the axe though. It's only a matter of time before they come out and say that the competitive nature of college athletics is not in line with BYU's goals or whatever. We'll see though.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by Imakeitrain » July 1st, 2021, 5:15 pm

There are going to be quite a few ways for athletes to make money- even beyond a single endorsement deal or some youtube pipe dream- both in revenue and non-revenue sports.

Did your son just get into USU? Hire Justin Bean to give him a shoutout on Cameo.
Does your daughter have dreams of being a gymnast? Hire a USU gymnast to help improve her skills.
Do you own a small business in the valley? Hire the entire softball team for a commercial.

There is money out there besides at Alabama.


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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by swordsman1989 » July 3rd, 2021, 6:10 am

I really hope most universities throw in the towel and eliminate athletic scholarships. This entire movement was based on the myth that collegiate athletics is a money making enterprise and that universities are reaping the windfall while exploiting student athletes.

First of all, except for a rare special few, collegiate athletics is a money drain for universities. Most athletic programs require subsidies from tax payers, other university funds, and from student fees in order to survive. USU is in fact one of the worst offenders, requiring tens of millions of dollars annually in public funds and student fees in order to meet the financial needs of its athletic department (56.5% of USUs $41.5 million dollar annual budget is subsidized by taxpayers, other university funds, and student fees, according to the latest numbers from USAToday) . Intercollegiate athletics is overwhelmingly a drain on university resources. (Some of the surprising entrants on the list of athletic departments that lose money overall include Clemson, Florida State, Maryland, Utah, and Auburn. All of them, and many more, requiring additional public subsidies to make up for their budget shortfalls).

Second, student athletes are reaping an enormous windfall as it is. The overwhelming majority of student athletes will not go pro in their sport, even including many of the higher profile athletes in the higher profile sports. Yet these students are receiving upwards of six figures in compensation for being athletes. The value of a full-ride scholarship for an out-of-state student athlete at USU will be approximately $132,000 over the course of four years (and approximately $74,000 for an in-state athlete), and it gets even higher if those students get a redshirt year and a medical extension. An out of state student athlete can leave USU with a master's degree and a total education valued at close to $200,000, paid for by the tax payers and fellow students, all for contributing absolutely nothing to the academic and research missions of the university. Now that those athletes can cash in off the notoriety gained from being athletes at the university, how can the expense to taxpayers and other students be justified?

I never thought I'd be one to say this, but I really would love to see USU eliminate intercollegiate athletics altogether and spend those millions of dollars on something like the annual budget of the college of engineering or college of science. At the very least, eliminate athletic scholarships and make the student athletes fund their own attendance at the university out of their new cash windfall.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by brownjeans » July 3rd, 2021, 9:24 am

What kind of fit will people throw when the golden goose is dead and thousands of poor minority students stop getting a college education because the opportunity died with the death of the athletic scholarship?
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by swordsman1989 » July 3rd, 2021, 9:51 am

brownjeans wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 9:24 am
What kind of fit will people throw when the golden goose is dead and thousands of poor minority students stop getting a college education because the opportunity died with the death of the athletic scholarship?
Put the money into academic scholarships for poor minority students. At least that can fit in to the mission of the university. I fail to see where providing tax payer funded sports entertainment fits in to the mission statement of the university.

What makes my blood boil is the narrative that universities are exploiting student athletes when the reality is the student athletes are receiving upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation at great expense to the university and the other students. On top of that, Billion dollar leagues like the NFL and NBA are gaining high end developmental leagues at zero cost.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by FromLItoLogan » July 3rd, 2021, 11:48 am

swordsman1989 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 9:51 am
brownjeans wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 9:24 am
What kind of fit will people throw when the golden goose is dead and thousands of poor minority students stop getting a college education because the opportunity died with the death of the athletic scholarship?
Put the money into academic scholarships for poor minority students. At least that can fit in to the mission of the university. I fail to see where providing tax payer funded sports entertainment fits in to the mission statement of the university.

What makes my blood boil is the narrative that universities are exploiting student athletes when the reality is the student athletes are receiving upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation at great expense to the university and the other students. On top of that, Billion dollar leagues like the NFL and NBA are gaining high end developmental leagues at zero cost.
I think maybe a good middle ground is as incoming freshmen offer them the choice, they can either receive an athletic scholarship or they can use their NIL and hope they make enough to cover everything.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » July 3rd, 2021, 12:42 pm

Pretty sure poor minority students get scholarships for just about anything with the stipulation that they maintain a c average. Not sure they need much more incentive.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by brownjeans » July 3rd, 2021, 1:55 pm

flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 12:42 pm
Pretty sure poor minority students get scholarships for just about anything with the stipulation that they maintain a c average. Not sure they need much more incentive.
And I'm equally pretty sure that a lot of athletes wouldn't start or finish college if it weren't for their athletic scholarship and associated support system. Of course, it's not a reason to keep the system, just pointing at what will be lost.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by swordsman1989 » July 3rd, 2021, 2:08 pm

brownjeans wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 1:55 pm
flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 12:42 pm
Pretty sure poor minority students get scholarships for just about anything with the stipulation that they maintain a c average. Not sure they need much more incentive.
And I'm equally pretty sure that a lot of athletes wouldn't start or finish college if it weren't for their athletic scholarship and associated support system. Of course, it's not a reason to keep the system, just pointing at what will be lost.
My point is those things do not have to be lost. If USU were to drop collegiate athletics, USU would have around an extra $23 million (based on the USAToday report) to fund minority scholarships and academic support systems. In fact given that USU spends around $6.1 million annually in athletic scholarships (according to USUs 2018 report to the NCAA), USU could offer three times as many scholarships to poor and other typically disadvantaged students and still have $5 million left over to fund an academic support system for those students. IMHO a far better use of that money.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by brownjeans » July 3rd, 2021, 2:44 pm

swordsman1989 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 2:08 pm
brownjeans wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 1:55 pm
flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 12:42 pm
Pretty sure poor minority students get scholarships for just about anything with the stipulation that they maintain a c average. Not sure they need much more incentive.
And I'm equally pretty sure that a lot of athletes wouldn't start or finish college if it weren't for their athletic scholarship and associated support system. Of course, it's not a reason to keep the system, just pointing at what will be lost.
My point is those things do not have to be lost. If USU were to drop collegiate athletics, USU would have around an extra $23 million (based on the USAToday report) to fund minority scholarships and academic support systems. In fact given that USU spends around $6.1 million annually in athletic scholarships (according to USUs 2018 report to the NCAA), USU could offer three times as many scholarships to poor and other typically disadvantaged students and still have $5 million left over to fund an academic support system for those students. IMHO a far better use of that money.
Yes, of course. But let's be honest, there are probably a number of athletes who wouldn't (and probably shouldn't) earn a scholarship if it weren't for athletic scholarships.
But maybe there would be more scholarships for people who WERE actually deserving and actually care about the true purpose of college - that's probably a good thing.
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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » July 3rd, 2021, 3:02 pm

brownjeans wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 1:55 pm
flying_scotsman2.0 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 12:42 pm
Pretty sure poor minority students get scholarships for just about anything with the stipulation that they maintain a c average. Not sure they need much more incentive.
And I'm equally pretty sure that a lot of athletes wouldn't start or finish college if it weren't for their athletic scholarship and associated support system. Of course, it's not a reason to keep the system, just pointing at what will be lost.
Certainly, I would agree with you. I’m just saying to give the state subsidies to minorities instead of athletics would be silly as there is a bunch of money for minorities already. I had a friend in high school who grew up in a similar neighborhood and economic status as I did and he got a full ride to USU because his grandpa moved to the US as a child from japan and he was considered a minority. He had to maintain a 2.0 Gpa for 4 solid years of tuition for no other reason than race.

If we’re defunding athletics, the subsidies would be better spent dumping it into research or something.



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by lynnmoree » July 14th, 2021, 2:25 pm

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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by WasatchAggie » July 23rd, 2021, 12:54 pm

swordsman1989 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 6:10 am

Second, student athletes are reaping an enormous windfall as it is. The overwhelming majority of student athletes will not go pro in their sport, even including many of the higher profile athletes in the higher profile sports. Yet these students are receiving upwards of six figures in compensation for being athletes. The value of a full-ride scholarship for an out-of-state student athlete at USU will be approximately $132,000 over the course of four years (and approximately $74,000 for an in-state athlete), and it gets even higher if those students get a redshirt year and a medical extension. An out of state student athlete can leave USU with a master's degree and a total education valued at close to $200,000, paid for by the tax payers and fellow students, all for contributing absolutely nothing to the academic and research missions of the university. Now that those athletes can cash in off the notoriety gained from being athletes at the university, how can the expense to taxpayers and other students be justified?
^^^^^
Perhaps in hard costs but I think all studies show the value of a college athletic scholarship is worth way more than you argue.

https://collegead.com/soft-dollar-value/

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forbes-a ... m-mcmillen

https://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/201 ... 60ac7619ef

An interesting counterpoint regarding the value of a college scholarship vs the costs related to qualifying for one.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markavallo ... a4984228ce

Another story talking about how scholarships are not uniform based upon the sport.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-c ... holarships

And finally, a new Forbes article written right before the USSC decision. It raises some interesting points regarding what could happen if the USSC rules as they ultimately did.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenweave ... 7b58cb6bf0

I imagine within 5-10 years there will be a minor sports league that SEC and certain other schools like Texas, Ohio State, USC, etc. will be in. The rest of the NCCA schools will move back to true amateur sports. Obviously, the best players and coaches will be in the minor league but we have that in essence today. What is interesting is that athletes may get what they have demanded but lose out in the end. For example, I found it surprising how little AAA minor league baseball players make:

https://fanbuzz.com/mlb/minor-league-baseball-salary/

The NBA’s G league is better but long-term, in my opinion, not as good as a college scholarship coupled with a college degree.

https://sport-net.org/how-much-do-the-d ... -get-paid/



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by ViAggie » July 30th, 2021, 1:04 pm

This is giving me an Idiocracy vibe (may not be safe for work)



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Re: John hartwell interview

Post by 3rdGenAggie » July 30th, 2021, 2:14 pm

WasatchAggie wrote:
July 23rd, 2021, 12:54 pm
swordsman1989 wrote:
July 3rd, 2021, 6:10 am

Second, student athletes are reaping an enormous windfall as it is. The overwhelming majority of student athletes will not go pro in their sport, even including many of the higher profile athletes in the higher profile sports. Yet these students are receiving upwards of six figures in compensation for being athletes. The value of a full-ride scholarship for an out-of-state student athlete at USU will be approximately $132,000 over the course of four years (and approximately $74,000 for an in-state athlete), and it gets even higher if those students get a redshirt year and a medical extension. An out of state student athlete can leave USU with a master's degree and a total education valued at close to $200,000, paid for by the tax payers and fellow students, all for contributing absolutely nothing to the academic and research missions of the university. Now that those athletes can cash in off the notoriety gained from being athletes at the university, how can the expense to taxpayers and other students be justified?
^^^^^
Perhaps in hard costs but I think all studies show the value of a college athletic scholarship is worth way more than you argue.

https://collegead.com/soft-dollar-value/

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forbes-a ... m-mcmillen

https://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/201 ... 60ac7619ef

An interesting counterpoint regarding the value of a college scholarship vs the costs related to qualifying for one.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markavallo ... a4984228ce

Another story talking about how scholarships are not uniform based upon the sport.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-c ... holarships

And finally, a new Forbes article written right before the USSC decision. It raises some interesting points regarding what could happen if the USSC rules as they ultimately did.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenweave ... 7b58cb6bf0

I imagine within 5-10 years there will be a minor sports league that SEC and certain other schools like Texas, Ohio State, USC, etc. will be in. The rest of the NCCA schools will move back to true amateur sports. Obviously, the best players and coaches will be in the minor league but we have that in essence today. What is interesting is that athletes may get what they have demanded but lose out in the end. For example, I found it surprising how little AAA minor league baseball players make:

https://fanbuzz.com/mlb/minor-league-baseball-salary/

The NBA’s G league is better but long-term, in my opinion, not as good as a college scholarship coupled with a college degree.

https://sport-net.org/how-much-do-the-d ... -get-paid/
I agree, and if/when that happens I genuinely hope those athletics programs cease to be non-profit at that point. The fact that the NFL was technically a non-profit for so long was absurd.


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