Jazz melt down

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Jazz melt down

Post by BobWilson » June 18th, 2021, 11:43 pm

is there anyone who thought the Jazz would hang on to win the 6th game after looking at the first 2-3 minutes of the 3rd quarter - 25 point lead notwithstanding? I don't watch many NBA games in the regular season but based on a few ply-off games, I think that Queta has a decent chance to play.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by 3rdGenAggie » June 18th, 2021, 11:52 pm

Counter point: it showed that a great defensive center can be neutralized in the NBA.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 12:01 am

Yeah I don't know if Gobert being exposed in the playoffs on an annual basis is good news for Queta. Also seeing the Clippers win the last two games with their center only playing 14 total minutes shows what the game is now. Serge Ibaka was out with an injury, but it doesn't seem the Clippers have missed him at all. They might not even have played him that much against the Jazz. Their strategy going small worked very well.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Yossarian » June 19th, 2021, 12:15 am

BobWilson wrote:
June 18th, 2021, 11:43 pm
is there anyone who thought the Jazz would hang on to win the 6th game after looking at the first 2-3 minutes of the 3rd quarter - 25 point lead notwithstanding? I don't watch many NBA games in the regular season but based on a few ply-off games, I think that Queta has a decent chance to play.
I think this series actually hurt Queta s chances of playing in the NBA. He can't guard the three, and he is not as athletic as Gobert



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by flying_scotsman2.0 » June 19th, 2021, 7:46 am

Yossarian wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 12:15 am
BobWilson wrote:
June 18th, 2021, 11:43 pm
is there anyone who thought the Jazz would hang on to win the 6th game after looking at the first 2-3 minutes of the 3rd quarter - 25 point lead notwithstanding? I don't watch many NBA games in the regular season but based on a few ply-off games, I think that Queta has a decent chance to play.
I think this series actually hurt Queta s chances of playing in the NBA. He can't guard the three, and he is not as athletic as Gobert
I don't think he's much less athletic than Gobert, he had a couple moments in college where he stole the ball, went coast to coast, and dunked it. He also had a decent mid-range jumper, and he is a phenomenal passer from the post. If he wants to stick in the NBA, he's going to need a reliable jump shot, and even be able to hit some from three.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by boyblue » June 19th, 2021, 8:25 am

We saw what happens when a team goes small against Queta at Boise State. You dump the ball inside and punish them. With good 3 point shooting surrouding Queta you could pick a team apart. Gobert has no offensive skills, other than dunking. Offensively, they aren't even comparable players. Defensively, it would probably look the same.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by slcagg » June 19th, 2021, 9:02 am

Queta has a nice developing outside shot.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 9:47 am

boyblue wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 8:25 am
We saw what happens when a team goes small against Queta at Boise State. You dump the ball inside and punish them. With good 3 point shooting surrouding Queta you could pick a team apart. Gobert has no offensive skills, other than dunking. Offensively, they aren't even comparable players. Defensively, it would probably look the same.
Big difference between the 4th place MW team playing small ball and an NBA playoff team doing it. Queta has a long way to go to be a great offensive NBA player.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 10:14 am

I think that Queta is already ahead of Gobert offensively. He has a looooooooong way to go, but IMO is a better low post and mid-range threat than Gobert.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Intermeddler » June 19th, 2021, 11:07 am

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 10:14 am
I think that Queta is already ahead of Gobert offensively. He has a looooooooong way to go, but IMO is a better low post and mid-range threat than Gobert.


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You don’t think Rudy would look good on offense in the MW? Rudy is miles ahead of Queta let’s not kid ourselves.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 11:22 am

Intermeddler wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 11:07 am
FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 10:14 am
I think that Queta is already ahead of Gobert offensively. He has a looooooooong way to go, but IMO is a better low post and mid-range threat than Gobert.


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You don’t think Rudy would look good on offense in the MW? Rudy is miles ahead of Queta let’s not kid ourselves.
Yeah I love Queta, but he isn't coming into the NBA next year and scoring 14 a game on over 60% shooting which is what Rudy has done the last 5 years. Yes, Rudy is absolutely limited offensively, but saying Queta is ahead of Rudy right now is seeing the world through giant blue goggles.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 19th, 2021, 12:20 pm

Sorry guys, but while Queta might have a shot to stick in the NBA, he is absolutely no Gobert. We are talking about an all-NBA, 3 x DPOY, multiple all-star here. Gobert would be drafted #1 or #2 if his draft were re-drafted. He is a relentless worker, way more athletic than he is given credit for, and once-in-a-generation defensive force.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 12:34 pm

I understand everything each of you are saying. Rudy shoots 60+ % because he dunks a LOT. I was far from saying Queta is anywhere near the player Gobert is, I’m not an idiot, but Queta does have more offensive skills than Rudy. Queta has a post up game. Rudy has zero post up game. Queta could become a serviceable 3 point shooter, not happening with Gobert. Does this make Queta better than Gobert, of course not, it’s not even close.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Intermeddler » June 19th, 2021, 12:49 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 12:34 pm
I understand everything each of you are saying. Rudy shoots 60+ % because he dunks a LOT. I was far from saying Queta is anywhere near the player Gobert is, I’m not an idiot, but Queta does have more offensive skills than Rudy. Queta has a post up game. Rudy has zero post up game. Queta could become a serviceable 3 point shooter, not happening with Gobert. Does this make Queta better than Gobert, of course not, it’s not even close.


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Queta has a post up game at the MW level. Put Rudy on the Aggies and he’d look like Olajuwon playing against MW guys.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 2:25 pm

Completely disagree. Have you watched Rudy when he gets the ball 10 feet from the hoop, or try to catch a pass that is a bit off target. If Rudy was 4 inches shorter he would not be in the NBA. Again, I’m not saying Queta and Rudy are even comparable players, that is absurd, but looking at it from a pure offensive skill set, I still say Queta has more offensive skills. Would you also argue the point if I stated Sam Merrill has more pure offensive skill than Ben Simmons? Not a better player but more offensive skills.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Intermeddler » June 19th, 2021, 4:47 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 2:25 pm
Completely disagree. Have you watched Rudy when he gets the ball 10 feet from the hoop, or try to catch a pass that is a bit off target. If Rudy was 4 inches shorter he would not be in the NBA. Again, I’m not saying Queta and Rudy are even comparable players, that is absurd, but looking at it from a pure offensive skill set, I still say Queta has more offensive skills. Would you also argue the point if I stated Sam Merrill has more pure offensive skill than Ben Simmons? Not a better player but more offensive skills.


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Sam is a better shooter for sure. Simmons is probably a better passer maybe ball handler too.I have seen Rudy catch the ball and it ain’t pretty most of the time. If he were playing New Mexico he would look fine.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 5:13 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 2:25 pm
Completely disagree. Have you watched Rudy when he gets the ball 10 feet from the hoop, or try to catch a pass that is a bit off target. If Rudy was 4 inches shorter he would not be in the NBA. Again, I’m not saying Queta and Rudy are even comparable players, that is absurd, but looking at it from a pure offensive skill set, I still say Queta has more offensive skills. Would you also argue the point if I stated Sam Merrill has more pure offensive skill than Ben Simmons? Not a better player but more offensive skills.


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You said Queta had passed up Rudy offensively. If that were true, we would be talking about Queta as a top 10 pick if not higher. A guy with his defensive prowess that could give you Rudy's offensive production as a rookie would be a seriously sought after commodity.

You put Rudy in the MW, he would absolutely dominate. The games would be a joke. We are talking about one of the best centers in the nba going up against MW competition.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 5:29 pm

I sure wish Rudy would have dominated last night against 6’7 defenders. I can’t believe I’m having an argument about how good Rudy is offensively. He runs the pick and roll very well and handles ally oops very well. If you think Rudy got his contract because of his offense, then I don’t know what to say. I think Rudy is a generational talent and an incredible athlete and will have a much longer and better career in the NBA than Queta. With the ball in his hands outside of 5 feet he can’t create his own shot. That is not true for Queta. Will you even agree that Queta is a better shooter? Queta may be very good in the pick and roll, we never had the chance to see it. There are times when Queta looks like an NBA talent but if I was a betting man I would bet it doesn’t happen. I do agree with whoever said Rudy would dominate the MW. He would lead the nation in FG% and dunks.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 5:38 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 5:29 pm
I sure wish Rudy would have dominated last night against 6’7 defenders. I can’t believe I’m having an argument about how good Rudy is offensively. He runs the pick and roll very well and handles ally oops very well. If you think Rudy got his contract because of his offense, then I don’t know what to say. I think Rudy is a generational talent and an incredible athlete and will have a much longer and better career in the NBA than Queta. With the ball in his hands outside of 5 feet he can’t create his own shot. That is not true for Queta. Will you even agree that Queta is a better shooter? Queta may be very good in the pick and roll, we never had the chance to see it. There are times when Queta looks like an NBA talent but if I was a betting man I would bet it doesn’t happen. I do agree with whoever said Rudy would dominate the MW. He would lead the nation in FG% and dunks.


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I don't know many people that will say Rudy is a great or even good offensive NBA player. He has his flaws. I ranted about them in the other thread. Saying Queta has passed him up is where you are going overboard. Queta could not give any NBA team 15 ppg right now. If he could, he'd be a top 10 pick minimum.
What is interesting is you also say you would bet against Queta being an NBA talent. If Queta is better than Rudy offensively with Queta already being one of the best defensive players in college basketball, it is interesting you would bet against him.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 5:52 pm

I would bet against it because there are many centers that are better offensively than Rudy (better shooters, ball handlers). Rudy is at another level defensively. That is why he is a top center in the NBA. I also think he is a much better rebounder than Queta. What % of Goberts points come from put backs and alley oops off of pick and rolls. Queta being a lesser rebounder and less vertical these points would not be as abundant. Offensively Queta would have a better chance of copying Embid’s game than Rudy. It’s just a comparison, Queta has nowhere near the talent as Embid.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 6:17 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 5:52 pm
I would bet against it because there are many centers that are better offensively than Rudy (better shooters, ball handlers). Rudy is at another level defensively. That is why he is a top center in the NBA. I also think he is a much better rebounder than Queta. What % of Goberts points come from put backs and alley oops off of pick and rolls. Queta being a lesser rebounder and less vertical these points would not be as abundant. Offensively Queta would have a better chance of copying Embid’s game than Rudy. It’s just a comparison, Queta has nowhere near the talent as Embid.


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Sure, but you act like getting put backs and dunks are easy in the NBA. Rudy singlehandedly kept the Jazz in the game during that 3rd quarter of game 5 with his offensive rebounding and put backs. His dunks show his skills around the rim. Not every center can get those dunks like he can.

Again, Rudy absolutely has his flaws. I ranted about them in the long thread and would absolutely take Embiid or Jokic if a trade like that presented itself. We probably agree more than we disagree. In the modern NBA I'm always taking an offensive superstar who can score at will than an average scorer who is a great defender. Come playoff time, that becomes obvious.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by FeartheFro » June 19th, 2021, 6:44 pm

You are putting words in my mouth. I clearly said that Rudy is a better rebounder and has more vertical, both of which contribute greatly to his scoring. They are both very valuable skills that he excels, far from saying it is easy.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Intermeddler » June 19th, 2021, 6:52 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 5:29 pm
I sure wish Rudy would have dominated last night against 6’7 defenders. I can’t believe I’m having an argument about how good Rudy is offensively. He runs the pick and roll very well and handles ally oops very well. If you think Rudy got his contract because of his offense, then I don’t know what to say. I think Rudy is a generational talent and an incredible athlete and will have a much longer and better career in the NBA than Queta. With the ball in his hands outside of 5 feet he can’t create his own shot. That is not true for Queta. Will you even agree that Queta is a better shooter? Queta may be very good in the pick and roll, we never had the chance to see it. There are times when Queta looks like an NBA talent but if I was a betting man I would bet it doesn’t happen. I do agree with whoever said Rudy would dominate the MW. He would lead the nation in FG% and dunks.


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You’re constructing a pretty large straw man here. No one thinks Rudy is an offensive savant or got his contract because of offense or is an especially skilled offensive player in the traditional sense. You said queta had passed him up offensively. I disagree. Unless a big is supremely skilled in the nba he will never get a post up chance. Queta would get 10 seconds in the post to back down a 6’9” future realtor. Give Rudy the same in the MW and he’d look really good.

Queta isn’t going to look good in the post in the nba because he won’t be doing it.

Rudy has a pretty good stroke. I’m surprised he doesn’t make more shots but why have him shoot a 10 footer?

Queta could have a nice career as a shot blocker and rim runner if he can become a good screen setter.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 19th, 2021, 7:13 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 2:25 pm
Completely disagree. Have you watched Rudy when he gets the ball 10 feet from the hoop, or try to catch a pass that is a bit off target. If Rudy was 4 inches shorter he would not be in the NBA. Again, I’m not saying Queta and Rudy are even comparable players, that is absurd, but looking at it from a pure offensive skill set, I still say Queta has more offensive skills. Would you also argue the point if I stated Sam Merrill has more pure offensive skill than Ben Simmons? Not a better player but more offensive skills.


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Sam Merrill is not a better offensive player than Simmons. He is a better outside shooter, sure, but Simmons is better at pretty much everything else.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by BobWilson » June 19th, 2021, 7:45 pm

Thanks for the lively discussion. Actually, I wasn't trying to compare Queta and Golbert. Just my impression after watching a number of playoff games. My main point was that I sensed the Jazz were doomed very early in the third quarter even though they had a big lead, based entirely on watching but a few recent Jazz games.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 19th, 2021, 9:20 pm

FeartheFro wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 6:44 pm
You are putting words in my mouth. I clearly said that Rudy is a better rebounder and has more vertical, both of which contribute greatly to his scoring. They are both very valuable skills that he excels, far from saying it is easy.


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I'm not putting your words in your mouth. You said Queta was further along than Gobert offensively. If NBA teams agreed with you, Queta would be a lock to be a top 10 pick. Very few rookies come in and average 15 pts right away and with Queta's defense, he would probably be the most sought after big man behind Evan Mobley if NBA scouts believed he would be that productive on both ends of the floor.

Anyway we are going in circles. I hope you are right. I'd be as happy as anyone else on here if Queta has a great NBA career.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by NVAggie » June 21st, 2021, 7:44 am

I don't know if it was a Jazz meltdown as much as it was a Clipper's barrage. They hit shots and defended well. The Clippers are a highly efficient offensive team. They had Mann go for 39 points on 7 for 10 shooting from three. Sometimes the ball just goes through the net. The Jazz have had flaws the whole season. Those flaws are brought to light in a tough playoff series. The Clippers had role players step up while the Jazz didn't. The major problem with the Jazz is that their role players weren't very good in this series. I don't know how that is going to change when you have two supermax players. I think the Jazz are in a tough spot personally. They don't have enough talent and they don't have room in the cap.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by dirtnsnow » June 21st, 2021, 8:07 am

NVAggie wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 7:44 am
I don't know if it was a Jazz meltdown as much as it was a Clipper's barrage. They hit shots and defended well. The Clippers are a highly efficient offensive team. They had Mann go for 39 points on 7 for 10 shooting from three. Sometimes the ball just goes through the net. The Jazz have had flaws the whole season. Those flaws are brought to light in a tough playoff series. The Clippers had role players step up while the Jazz didn't. The major problem with the Jazz is that their role players weren't very good in this series. I don't know how that is going to change when you have two supermax players. I think the Jazz are in a tough spot personally. They don't have enough talent and they don't have room in the cap.
When you lose a double digit lead in multiple games, I would classify that as a melt down. I think the jazz are the better team when playing at their best. The problem is (IMHO) that they had a regular season mentality; namely that if they get up by enough, that they can coast. They thought the other team would fold. That just isn't the case in the playoffs. Memphis should have been the wakeup call, as all but one of those games were closer than anticipated. But throughout the LA series, the jazz would go up 10-15 points, and become noticeably less aggressive on both sides of the floor. It wasn't just a single player or a single stat, this was a team failure.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by NVAggie » June 21st, 2021, 8:14 am

That has been the Jazz way all season. It is one of their flaws as a team. Is it a melt down if a guy comes off the deep bench and puts up 39 points on 7-10 shooting from 3? The Clippers played great. I didn't watch the game, so maybe I am just looking at it from a poor perspective.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by dirtnsnow » June 21st, 2021, 8:17 am

NVAggie wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 8:14 am
That has been the Jazz way all season. It is one of their flaws as a team. Is it a melt down if a guy comes off the deep bench and puts up 39 points on 7-10 shooting from 3? The Clippers played great. I didn't watch the game, so maybe I am just looking at it from a poor perspective.
Agreed that they've been that way all season. It works during the regular season because the other team is more likely to fold. An attitude of "oh well, we'll get the next one". That's not true in the playoffs. Yes, allowing a bench player to score that much and bring their team back into the game from a 20+ point deficit is a meltdown. You should be able to stop the other team's bench with your starters before they go off that much.


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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » June 21st, 2021, 10:05 am

NVAggie wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 8:14 am
That has been the Jazz way all season. It is one of their flaws as a team. Is it a melt down if a guy comes off the deep bench and puts up 39 points on 7-10 shooting from 3? The Clippers played great. I didn't watch the game, so maybe I am just looking at it from a poor perspective.
Yep, blowing a 25 point lead and letting a guy who barely played meaningful minutes in the playoffs before Kawhi went down look like a superstar to beat you is a big time meltdown. Giving up 80 second half points is a bad meltdown.

It is ok. The Jazz took a big step this year and are in good position to compete for the next several years. They just need to make some smart decisions to improve their team this offseason.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by Mr. Sneelock » June 21st, 2021, 10:38 am

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 10:05 am
NVAggie wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 8:14 am
That has been the Jazz way all season. It is one of their flaws as a team. Is it a melt down if a guy comes off the deep bench and puts up 39 points on 7-10 shooting from 3? The Clippers played great. I didn't watch the game, so maybe I am just looking at it from a poor perspective.
Yep, blowing a 25 point lead and letting a guy who barely played meaningful minutes in the playoffs before Kawhi went down look like a superstar to beat you is a big time meltdown. Giving up 80 second half points is a bad meltdown.

It is ok. The Jazz took a big step this year and are in good position to compete for the next several years. They just need to make some smart decisions to improve their team this offseason.
Yeah, there is always a lot of overreacting following a tough playoff loss. We all need to take a step back and calm down. We don't need to fire the coaching staff and trade everyone. We all yell about the lack of adjustments, but the Jazz just didn't have the personnel to combat what the Clippers were doing offensively. The Jazz whole defensive strategy all year was to funnel the offensive players into Rudy. The problem with that is when the other team can play 5 legitimate outside shooters. The vast majority of teams can't do that, and the Jazz defense works well. For the Jazz defense to work well, Rudy has to be able to leave one offensive player open to help defensively. It wasn't his fault. If you make him stay home on Mann in the corner, or take him out for another perimeter player, it becomes a layup line. The Jazz just need to be able to play better defense on the perimeter - and they don't really have the personnel to do that. The injuries to Donovan and Conley made this even more apparent - they were both limited laterally and had a hard time staying in front of their man.
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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by dirtnsnow » June 21st, 2021, 10:43 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 10:38 am
Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 10:05 am
NVAggie wrote:
June 21st, 2021, 8:14 am
That has been the Jazz way all season. It is one of their flaws as a team. Is it a melt down if a guy comes off the deep bench and puts up 39 points on 7-10 shooting from 3? The Clippers played great. I didn't watch the game, so maybe I am just looking at it from a poor perspective.
Yep, blowing a 25 point lead and letting a guy who barely played meaningful minutes in the playoffs before Kawhi went down look like a superstar to beat you is a big time meltdown. Giving up 80 second half points is a bad meltdown.

It is ok. The Jazz took a big step this year and are in good position to compete for the next several years. They just need to make some smart decisions to improve their team this offseason.
Yeah, there is always a lot of overreacting following a tough playoff loss. We all need to take a step back and calm down. We don't need to fire the coaching staff and trade everyone. We all yell about the lack of adjustments, but the Jazz just didn't have the personnel to combat what the Clippers were doing offensively. The Jazz whole defensive strategy all year was to funnel the offensive players into Rudy. The problem with that is when the other team can play 5 legitimate outside shooters. The vast majority of teams can't do that, and the Jazz defense works well. For the Jazz defense to work well, Rudy has to be able to leave one offensive player open to help defensively. It wasn't his fault. If you make him stay home on Mann in the corner, or take him out for another perimeter player, it becomes a layup line. The Jazz just need to be able to play better defense on the perimeter - and they don't really have the personnel to do that. The injuries to Donovan and Conley made this even more apparent - they were both limited laterally and had a hard time staying in front of their man.
I agree that they don't need to blow it up. I disagree with the statement that they don't have the personnel. They were up by double digits in multiple games. Yes, the defense needed to improve, but I think it's more of an effort thing than personnel. Memphis managed to come back from double digit deficits in multiple games, as well. The jazz lacked the killer instinct to keep it in a high gear. Hopefully they either develop that or get someone who has it.



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Re: Jazz melt down

Post by brownjeans » June 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm

They need players who can defend on the perimeter and hit threes. They have guys that can hit threes, but not guys that can defend on the perimeter. I think they need to shop some of their guys for different guys, or maybe some draft picks.



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