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Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Level headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
I’m as mad as anyone else he left for Utah like a thief in the night, but he did a great job here. Let’s just move on. We won’t play them ever again so it’s a waste of time to talk about them. I’m excited for what is potentially looking like a great season and the job Odom is doing.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Having 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
No one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
I never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
When you leave Utah state basketball for the same role at Utah I can muster zero good things to say about you. Yes I am still bitter.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Queta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
And the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
Y’all really gotta stop giving him any credit for Queta. Craig Smith recruited him as much as he did Merrill in high school lol. That summer before he got here, Queta had his camp reaching out to college coaches all over the country. Utah State was literally the only school where they could get him enrolled so he could play that immediate season. So he came here. So sure, he got him here but Queta had no choice.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
All I know is where the program was before Smith got here in terms of wins and losses. That game vs. Nevada his first year spoke volumes of what he was able to do. Hadn't had that Spectrum magic in a long time.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Fonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Recruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
You are arguing in circles. Recruiting a bunch of average guys and one elite guy who leaves is not setting us up for sustained success just as Stew didn't, which is why there was a huge talent void when TD took over and when Odom took over.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:53 pmIntermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
I don't know if you aren't understanding that I think Craig is a good coach who did an excellent job here by and large. If you want to argue with someone who is actually complaining about him in a substantive way about his tenure you should quote others in this thread.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
So you want Craig to recruit really great players, but not so great that they leave early to the NBA, so that he can build a sustainable success...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:58 pmYou are arguing in circles. Recruiting a bunch of average guys and one elite guy who leaves is not setting us up for sustained success just as Stew didn't, which is why there was a huge talent void when TD took over and when Odom took over.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:53 pmIntermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
I don't know if you aren't understanding that I think Craig is a good coach who did an excellent job here by and large. If you want to argue with someone who is actually complaining about him in a substantive way about his tenure you should quote others in this thread.
Stew definitely waned in his final years. On that we are in agreement. I thought Craig recruited just fine. Was he the best recruited we ever had? No. The worst? No. He recruited well enough to win us three championships and three spots in the NCAA Tournament in 3 years. That's good enough for me. (que the people who say Merrill was gift wrapped and Queta fell into his lap).
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
But if you don't count the good players, he recruited average players at best. A few bad ones, even.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 2:00 pmSo you want Craig to recruit really great players, but not so great that they leave early to the NBA, so that he can build a sustainable success...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:58 pmYou are arguing in circles. Recruiting a bunch of average guys and one elite guy who leaves is not setting us up for sustained success just as Stew didn't, which is why there was a huge talent void when TD took over and when Odom took over.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:53 pmIntermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
I don't know if you aren't understanding that I think Craig is a good coach who did an excellent job here by and large. If you want to argue with someone who is actually complaining about him in a substantive way about his tenure you should quote others in this thread.
Stew definitely waned in his final years. On that we are in agreement. I thought Craig recruited just fine. Was he the best recruited we ever had? No. The worst? No. He recruited well enough to win us three championships and three spots in the NCAA Tournament in 3 years. That's good enough for me. (que the people who say Merrill was gift wrapped and Queta fell into his lap).
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
No, I want him to recruit good players. Players good enough to go to the NBA sure, or just good enough to finish all conference. Stew never recruited NBA guys but consistently had all conference caliber players. Why didn't Craig? Go back and look at 22's posts in that era about how selective that staff was in offers or visits and how little they aggressively recruited.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 2:00 pmSo you want Craig to recruit really great players, but not so great that they leave early to the NBA, so that he can build a sustainable success...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:58 pmYou are arguing in circles. Recruiting a bunch of average guys and one elite guy who leaves is not setting us up for sustained success just as Stew didn't, which is why there was a huge talent void when TD took over and when Odom took over.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:53 pmIntermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
I don't know if you aren't understanding that I think Craig is a good coach who did an excellent job here by and large. If you want to argue with someone who is actually complaining about him in a substantive way about his tenure you should quote others in this thread.
Stew definitely waned in his final years. On that we are in agreement. I thought Craig recruited just fine. Was he the best recruited we ever had? No. The worst? No. He recruited well enough to win us three championships and three spots in the NCAA Tournament in 3 years. That's good enough for me. (que the people who say Merrill was gift wrapped and Queta fell into his lap).
I don't think you can say he recruited well enough to win three championships because most of those players were not his recruits. He certainly coached well enough, but once it became his guys you saw what happened. He recruited at an average to below average level. He had multiple conference titles and tournament appearances to point to in recruiting guys and failed to bring talent that would elevate the program in a sustained way. Duryea brought in better players off 16 win seasons.
We will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think his tenure at Utah will go poorly because he is not a talent acquisition guy and that is what they desperately need in that league.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Gwaggies.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Craig and staff deserve some credit for Max Shulga, Marco Anthony, Rollie Worster, and Sean Bairstow, I suppose. None of those guys is a world beater (and all have warts), but all were or are competent Mountain West-level rotation players when used properly. Other than Shulga (who arguably hasn't hit his ceiling yet), the cake is baked and all of them are at least average MW-level rotation players.
I think he's going to continue to really struggle to recruit P5 caliber players. Craig is the personification of the Peter Principle in his new role at Utah. This isn't to diminish what he accomplished here, which was a lot. It's just truth.
I think he's going to continue to really struggle to recruit P5 caliber players. Craig is the personification of the Peter Principle in his new role at Utah. This isn't to diminish what he accomplished here, which was a lot. It's just truth.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
He did.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 2:14 pmNo, I want him to recruit good players. Players good enough to go to the NBA sure, or just good enough to finish all conference. Stew never recruited NBA guys but consistently had all conference caliber players. Why didn't Craig? Go back and look at 22's posts in that era about how selective that staff was in offers or visits and how little they aggressively recruited.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 2:00 pmSo you want Craig to recruit really great players, but not so great that they leave early to the NBA, so that he can build a sustainable success...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:58 pmYou are arguing in circles. Recruiting a bunch of average guys and one elite guy who leaves is not setting us up for sustained success just as Stew didn't, which is why there was a huge talent void when TD took over and when Odom took over.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:53 pmIntermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:40 pmRecruit better players. Most of his signees were fine. Not great. Mid tier MW players. It’s not surprising our best players since he left we’re Odom transfers or guys who committed to Duryea.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 1:19 pmFonzo, Rollie, and Marco all abandoned ship when he left. That's pretty common when coaches jump ship. Should he have done more to convince them to stay at Utah State? Shulga stayed here and is one of our key contributors this year. Then you have Thellisen who didn't work out and Zapala who's still here playing limited minutes.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:25 pmAnd the rest of his signees?treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:24 pmQueta could still be here if he wasn't so good he left early for the NBA. I guess he actually recruited TOO well...Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:16 pmI never said he couldn’t develop talent. But I don’t think he recruited well enough to sustain success.treesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 12:02 pmNo one on the team he inherited was destined for the NBA at the time. In fact, the one player we thought was possibly destined for greatness abandoned ship after Craig arrived.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:59 amHaving 3 nba players on a usu roster doesn’t happen often either. Craig did a good job here for sure and was what we needed after duryea but he stepped into a better situation than we assumed given how bad things were under his predecessor. I also don’t think he really set us up for long term success with his recruiting.dirtnsnow wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:10 amLevel headed analysis. I like it.Aggie84025 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 10:06 amCraig was a great coach and did great things here. I don't know why people try and throw shade at him. To win 2 conference crowns and 3 straight tournaments is something that does not happen often. I was skeptical with Odom's first year which I think was warranted. So far this year Odom is proving me wrong which is great.
By the time left three years later he had 2 NBA draftees (first ones in 30+ years) and a guy who he helped from walk-on to MWC star who eventually had/has a shot at the NBA as well.
But yeah, he couldn't recruit or develop talent...
The thing with recruiting is you'll always only be able to support 8 or 9 key players and the remaining 4 or 5 will sit the bench and be seen of as "busts". A few of them will last a few years of bench-sitting and may progress into key contributors. But you'll never be able to tout all recruits as a success. Even for the best recruiters. There's not enough minutes to go around for that to happen.
When you said he didn't recruit well enough to sustain success what would you have had him do differently?
You’re right that a portion of your signees won’t really work out by definition due to limited minutes but the entire group you listed in your post isn’t stocking a team with enough talent to finish top 3 in conference even if they stuck around.
Stew wasn’t a great recruiter either. His staff did a good job with that. I think Craig is similar. I liked his schemes. He got the most out of his teams. Got to the tourney but couldn’t do anything once there. I think the talent drop we saw under stew after 2011 would have happened to Craig had he stayed.
If the biggest complaint about Craig Smith was that he was similar to Stew Morrill, we're really grasping at straws to diminish the guy that abandoned us in the night.
I don't know if you aren't understanding that I think Craig is a good coach who did an excellent job here by and large. If you want to argue with someone who is actually complaining about him in a substantive way about his tenure you should quote others in this thread.
Stew definitely waned in his final years. On that we are in agreement. I thought Craig recruited just fine. Was he the best recruited we ever had? No. The worst? No. He recruited well enough to win us three championships and three spots in the NCAA Tournament in 3 years. That's good enough for me. (que the people who say Merrill was gift wrapped and Queta fell into his lap).
I don't think you can say he recruited well enough to win three championships because most of those players were not his recruits. He certainly coached well enough, but once it became his guys you saw what happened. He recruited at an average to below average level. He had multiple conference titles and tournament appearances to point to in recruiting guys and failed to bring talent that would elevate the program in a sustained way. Duryea brought in better players off 16 win seasons.
We will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think his tenure at Utah will go poorly because he is not a talent acquisition guy and that is what they desperately need in that league.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Gwaggies.
Coach of the Year
Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year (x 2)
Freshman of the Year
Sixth Man of the Year
All Defensive Team (x 5)
All Conference First Team (x 3)
All Conference Second Team (x 3)
All Conference Third Team (x 1)
All of that in 3 years. Not sure what else to say.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
[/quote]
He did.
Coach of the Year
Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year (x 2)
Freshman of the Year
Sixth Man of the Year
All Defensive Team (x 5)
All Conference First Team (x 3)
All Conference Second Team (x 3)
All Conference Third Team (x 1)
All of that in 3 years. Not sure what else to say.
[/quote]
Coach of the year? We are talking about his recruiting.
Other than Queta, that is Sam and Bean who he did not recruit. Getting Queta was great. No argument there. You need more than 1 elite guy to sustain recruiting success.
Grootfame, McChesney, Bairstow, Anderson, Karowski, Potter, Zapala, Worster, Shulga, Vedischev, Queta, Marco
Not sure what else to say
He did.
Coach of the Year
Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year (x 2)
Freshman of the Year
Sixth Man of the Year
All Defensive Team (x 5)
All Conference First Team (x 3)
All Conference Second Team (x 3)
All Conference Third Team (x 1)
All of that in 3 years. Not sure what else to say.
[/quote]
Coach of the year? We are talking about his recruiting.
Other than Queta, that is Sam and Bean who he did not recruit. Getting Queta was great. No argument there. You need more than 1 elite guy to sustain recruiting success.
Grootfame, McChesney, Bairstow, Anderson, Karowski, Potter, Zapala, Worster, Shulga, Vedischev, Queta, Marco
Not sure what else to say
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
You're right, if you eliminate all of his good recruits that had multiple all conference honors (Queta and Alphonso), and discount the player development from players who were never all conference players before Craig arrived he really did have zero all-conference level players.
In a couple years we can also eliminate the all-conference honors that his recruits may get (Bairstow, Shulga) too because they only got them because Craig left.
The dude sucks.
In a couple years we can also eliminate the all-conference honors that his recruits may get (Bairstow, Shulga) too because they only got them because Craig left.
The dude sucks.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Can't trust @treesap32 he thinks Kris Clark is the best point guard in Stew's era.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
AA never made an all conference teamtreesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:26 pmYou're right, if you eliminate all of his good recruits that had multiple all conference honors (Queta and Alphonso), and discount the player development from players who were never all conference players before Craig arrived he really did have zero all-conference level players.
In a couple years we can also eliminate the all-conference honors that his recruits may get (Bairstow, Shulga) too because they only got them because Craig left.
The dude sucks.
I never discounted his player development
If Bairstow and shulga get all conference honors we can revise this discussion or Does Odom get credit for that if you give smith credit for Sam and bean? But even then that’s far too many busts to keep the program at a top 3 level in conference.
I never said he sucks. You’re very adept at constructing strawmen to argue with I’ll give you that
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
AA was the 6th man of the year.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:35 pmAA never made an all conference teamtreesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:26 pmYou're right, if you eliminate all of his good recruits that had multiple all conference honors (Queta and Alphonso), and discount the player development from players who were never all conference players before Craig arrived he really did have zero all-conference level players.
In a couple years we can also eliminate the all-conference honors that his recruits may get (Bairstow, Shulga) too because they only got them because Craig left.
The dude sucks.
I never discounted his player development
If Bairstow and shulga get all conference honors we can revise this discussion or Does Odom get credit for that if you give smith credit for Sam and bean?
I never said he sucks. You’re very adept at constructing strawmen to argue with I’ll give you that
I'd give credit to both Smith and Odom if Bairstow and Shulga get all-conference honors. Just like I credit Stew, Duryea, Sam's Parents, and Smith for Sam Merrill's honors. All of them played a part in it. I credit Spencer Nelson, Duryea, and Smith for Bean's successes. But honestly, mostly Smith. I never thought Bean would do anything at Utah State until Smith developed him and gave him a chance. One of the most pleasant surprises I've seen on the team.
Yeah I've been very sarcastic in this thread. Honestly I thought a lot of the other posts were sarcastic as well, but not all of them were.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Agreed on Bean. Smith deserves a world of credit for turning him into what he was and refining Quetas game. But I’m not talking about what happens once they’re on campus I am narrowly talking about identifying guys and convincing them to come here which I think he lacked at. Once on campus, no question he developed guys above what I thought they could do. FWIW I don’t consider 6th man of the year to be an all conference team selection but your mileage may vary on thattreesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:38 pmAA was the 6th man of the year.Intermeddler wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:35 pmAA never made an all conference teamtreesap32 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 3:26 pmYou're right, if you eliminate all of his good recruits that had multiple all conference honors (Queta and Alphonso), and discount the player development from players who were never all conference players before Craig arrived he really did have zero all-conference level players.
In a couple years we can also eliminate the all-conference honors that his recruits may get (Bairstow, Shulga) too because they only got them because Craig left.
The dude sucks.
I never discounted his player development
If Bairstow and shulga get all conference honors we can revise this discussion or Does Odom get credit for that if you give smith credit for Sam and bean?
I never said he sucks. You’re very adept at constructing strawmen to argue with I’ll give you that
I'd give credit to both Smith and Odom if Bairstow and Shulga get all-conference honors. Just like I credit Stew, Duryea, Sam's Parents, and Smith for Sam Merrill's honors. All of them played a part in it. I credit Spencer Nelson, Duryea, and Smith for Bean's successes. But honestly, mostly Smith. I never thought Bean would do anything at Utah State until Smith developed him and gave him a chance. One of the most pleasant surprises I've seen on the team.
Yeah I've been very sarcastic in this thread. Honestly I thought a lot of the other posts were sarcastic as well, but not all of them were.
Cheers
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Just an interesting tidbit regarding Shulga and Bairstow. If smith wouldn’t have left for Utah when he did, they would’ve entered the portal too, like McChesney, etc. Heard it from their mouths themselves. They weren’t shy about their displeasure with Smith.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Craig Smith is a sh*tty coach for one reason - he started Broc Miller 3 years in a row.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Uh....Odom started Brock until the injury. I don't think he's a sh*tty coach.OrangeCountyAggie wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 4:54 pmCraig Smith is a sh*tty coach for one reason - he started Broc Miller 3 years in a row.
Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
This is such a dumb discussion… so let me partake. The best trash talk you have is the scoreboard.
Or as Bill Parcells says, you are what your record says you are. Craig Smith’s record at Utah State was pretty damn good. So that ends the discussion right there. Oh and he was pretty good at his other jobs as well.
Having said that, I hope he loses like hell at Utah.
Or as Bill Parcells says, you are what your record says you are. Craig Smith’s record at Utah State was pretty damn good. So that ends the discussion right there. Oh and he was pretty good at his other jobs as well.
Having said that, I hope he loses like hell at Utah.
Last edited by bpd on November 18th, 2022, 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Dumb discussions are in vogue today. 114 posts and counting about past coaches and, amid the impossible to find location of the mute button, a play by play guy that most likely will never be heard from again.bpd wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 5:22 pmThis is such a dumb discussion… so let me partake. The best trash talk you have is the scoreboard.
Or has Bill Parcells says, you what your record says you are. Craig Smith’s record at Utah State was pretty damn good. So that ends the discussion right there. Oh and he was pretty good at his other jobs as well.
Having said that, I hope he loses like hell at Utah.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Bank Shot wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 4:57 pmUh....Odom started Brock until the injury. I don't think he's a sh*tty coach.OrangeCountyAggie wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 4:54 pmCraig Smith is a sh*tty coach for one reason - he started Broc Miller 3 years in a row.
I'll give Odem a pass, he was new. I'll bet he would have eventually learned that Broc, while a great locker room guy, was a boat anchor on the basketball court.
Last edited by OrangeCountyAggie on November 18th, 2022, 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
Dont forget Fonz or that 7'3" polish kid. No doubt, I'd be pissed too if I were one of those guys getting a short leash while Miller has a green light.AggieGrad2021 wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 4:44 pmJust an interesting tidbit regarding Shulga and Bairstow. If smith wouldn’t have left for Utah when he did, they would’ve entered the portal too, like McChesney, etc. Heard it from their mouths themselves. They weren’t shy about their displeasure with Smith.
Last edited by OrangeCountyAggie on November 19th, 2022, 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Craig Smith is a fraud and can’t coach.
I remember going to some of those games and the curtain definitely wasn’t closed back then. (I don’t even remember a curtain back then) It would be filled to the very last awful seat at the top. That would be crazy to have Keith Van Horn and Andre Miller on your campus and be like meh.. football rules especially when Miller, Doleac, Hanno, and Jensen are taking you to a national championship game one of those years. But I guess……ute fans huh?afausu wrote: ↑November 18th, 2022, 9:52 amReally? When they were in the MBB national championship, a couple sweet sixteens and an elite 8 with Majerus they were saying that? I dare say not.ViAggie wrote:Utah is a Football school. Even when I was a student there and Rick Majerus had things going for them, the overall sentiment on campus was... "basketball, meh"
With that said I think CS's job there is safe for now