I wanted to generate discussion about the below article. It’s an ESPN+ thing behind a paywall, but its another one of those surveys amongst Mountain West basketball coaches ranking the jobs in the conference.

https://es.pn/3gVHIxm

The consensus “top tier” jobs are UNM, UNLV, and San Diego St. The consensus “middle tier” jobs are Colorado St., Nevada, and Boise St. We are mentioned in the third-tier with Fresno St.

The biggest knock on us is that we are “third fiddle” in Utah and have to recruit internationally (which to me is just stupid; I’d rather have my selection of the third-tier Utah players and international players than the first tier players in New Mexico or Wyoming). I strongly disagree that UNM, Colorado St, and Boise St. are better basketball jobs than USU right now, but that’s not really my point.

What I want to try to understand is why our perception amongst the coaches in the conference is so out of line with both our current success and our basketball tradition, which, in my opinion, is objectively better than everyone in the conference save UNLV, San Diego St., and Nevada. Odom has compared USU to a Xavier, Creighton, or Wichita St. level program in interviews.

Thoughts? Am I overvaluing USU?

I don't think you are overvaluing USU. We did have that rough patch of 6 or so years of being on the lower end of the MW, but other than that we have been really good. I certainly don't know what they are basing their evaluation off of. We all know Logan is in a more remote location. In terms of basketball we are probably 3rd fiddle in the state. In terms of pay we pay competitively with the conference mates. Certainly the spectrum from an amenities is not great, but outside of that the atmosphere is as good as any in the conference. Any coach would love to have the homecourt advantage that USU has. We have good fan support for basketball. UNLV keeps staying in the top tier, but what have they done in 30 years. NM is solid and have really good fan support, but the pay is no better than USU. At a minimum we are top of the 2nd tier.

What has CSU and BSU done in the last 10 years, not much? I would actually put Nevada in the tier 1 and remove UNLV.

It would be nice to understand the survey criteria....

Pay
Facilities
Metro Size
Airport Proximity
Fan Support (attendance/donations)
Basketball History (overall MW record, overall program record, NCAA bids, rankings, etc.)
Local bars, restaurants, cost of living, demographics, etc.

If it was primarily based on wins, tourney bids, and attendance over the past 3 years, I suspect we'd be top tier.

If it is just the coaches ranking each job from top to bottom, I'd question the objectivity.

There's a really simple answer to this question. All the other coaches want the USU job, but they don't want competition, so they're publicly playing it down.

Hmm... Without actually reading the article, the premise is interesting. The only item I really disagree with is Colorado St. being a "better" job than USU. UNM, UNLV, San Diego are all reasonable, and I get those. I don't think they're necessarily better schools or better programs right now, but I agree that they'd be the top tier. I agree that Nevada is a step above us, but I wouldn't rank them with the others. Boise St is harder for me to judge, but they're a bigger market and attached to a perennial football powerhouse, so I can also accept that one. Why CSU though?

While I agree with Coach Odom in the comparison to Xavier et al., I think they're more consistent. Despite being an Aggie through and through, I think any of those three programs are much more likely to succeed esp. when it comes to the NCAA tournament. Maybe we're on the brink of lasting change where we don't peak and valley so much, but I'll hold judgement on that.

I mean, if you look at last year's standings, St. Bonaventure did better than Kentucky. But Kentucky's still the better coaching job. When it comes to the conference, let's be honest, it seems like each year UNM and UNLV attract incredible talent, despite performing poorly. USU has to be a bit more creative, which makes it more difficult for coaching staff.

I would think that CSU could pay a coach more than USU. How cost of living fits into that equation, I don't know. It has been proven that a coach can win in Logan, despite its perceived position in the pecking order in the state of Utah. I question whether the author has been to a game in the Spectrum and experienced that. I think that has a big affect on recruits, which has an affect on a coach's ability to bring in players and win at USU. I don't put a whole lot of stock into these pieces whose sole purpose is to kill time, get clicks, and create discussion in the off-season.

I didn't hear anything about Odom being interested in UNLV or UNM so I guess he doesn't agree with this article.

BigBlueDart wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 2:56 pm

There's a really simple answer to this question. All the other coaches want the USU job, but they don't want competition, so they're publicly playing it down.

I actually thought the same thing. Why pass up a chance to publicly trash your competition.

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 1:55 pm

I wanted to generate discussion about the below article. It’s an ESPN+ thing behind a paywall, but its another one of those surveys amongst Mountain West basketball coaches ranking the jobs in the conference.

https://es.pn/3gVHIxm

The consensus “top tier” jobs are UNM, UNLV, and San Diego St. The consensus “middle tier” jobs are Colorado St., Nevada, and Boise St. We are mentioned in the third-tier with Fresno St.

The biggest knock on us is that we are “third fiddle” in Utah and have to recruit internationally (which to me is just stupid; I’d rather have my selection of the third-tier Utah players and international players than the first tier players in New Mexico or Wyoming). I strongly disagree that UNM, Colorado St, and Boise St. are better basketball jobs than USU right now, but that’s not really my point.

What I want to try to understand is why our perception amongst the coaches in the conference is so out of line with both our current success and our basketball tradition, which, in my opinion, is objectively better than everyone in the conference save UNLV, San Diego St., and Nevada. Odom has compared USU to a Xavier, Creighton, or Wichita St. level program in interviews.

Thoughts? Am I overvaluing USU?

Don't forget that Idaho, (No offense Spencer Nelson and Justin Bean), doesn't bring that much to the table either and has nothing over Utah basketball.
If Idaho had a PAC 12 or BYU in their state, Boise State would be 3rd fiddle too.

Utah is also among the fastest growing states in the country in terms of economy and population.

AggieFBObsession wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 5:24 pm

Don't forget that Idaho, (No offense Spencer Nelson and Justin Bean), doesn't bring that much to the table either and has nothing over Utah basketball.

Do you mean Brady Jardine? I don't know where Bean grew up, but he played high school ball in Oklahoma (his dad played at Idaho State).

I thought the article was good and they had complementary things to say about the schools they talked about..

In other news..Jeff Borzello released his top 100 transfer list. Matt Bradley (SDSU) is number 16.

AJ Bramagh (NV) is 78

No others in the top 100 but he did extend out a next in line list to 20 more players..

Horvath was 118 and Rollie Worster was 120

If our recruiting is so weak, why have we currently and historically outperformed many of our more highly-regarded conference mates?

If our recruiting is so weak, why do we have the two recent NBA players that they point to to basically write off our recent success?

IMO, the only measure that makes sense to evaluate the jobs in the conference is historic and current success, and we are top 3 in both categories.

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:29 pm

If our recruiting is so weak, why have we currently and historically outperformed many of our more highly-regarded conference mates?

If our recruiting is so weak, why do we have the two recent NBA players that they point to to basically write off our recent success?

IMO, the only measure that makes sense to evaluate the jobs in the conference is historic and current success, and we are top 3 in both categories.

Nah, we aren't in the top 3 in historic.

This is what they said about USU.. I do not think they were dissing your recruiting..They said it was hard to recruit in state.

Another intriguing program in the league is Utah State but the consensus was that the Aggies are a tier down from a recruiting and job perspective.

They struggled after moving from the WAC to the Mountain West, before Craig Smith took over and led the program to three 20-win seasons and two NCAA tournament appearances (it would have been three if not for the pandemic) during his time in Logan. Can Utah State remain a consistent factor in the top-third of the league? It won't be easy for Ryan Odom, who arrived from UMBC after Smith departed for Utah.

"They were getting beat so bad when they got in the league. Then they became near the top of the league with Craig Smith. But they had two pros [Sam Merrill and Neemias Queta). Their crowd is second to San Diego State as of today. They're one of the hardest places to play because their crowds are awesome," one coach said. "It's a hard recruiting base. Utah kids have BYU and Utah, in either order, then Utah State. They're third in the pecking order. So you have to recruit internationally, you have to do well with evaluations. I thought Craig did well with them. Their starting five was kind of a hodgepodge."

Real Life Aggie wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:47 pm

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:29 pm

If our recruiting is so weak, why have we currently and historically outperformed many of our more highly-regarded conference mates?

If our recruiting is so weak, why do we have the two recent NBA players that they point to to basically write off our recent success?

IMO, the only measure that makes sense to evaluate the jobs in the conference is historic and current success, and we are top 3 in both categories.

Nah, we aren't in the top 3 in historic.

So who are your top 3? SDSU, UNLV, and UNM?

I think UNM’s reputation is wildly overblown and unearned. We have more tourney appearances than any other school in the conference. The only school with any history of winning in the tourney is UNLV. How are we not Top 3?

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:49 pm

This is what they said about USU.. I do not think they were dissing your recruiting..They said it was hard to recruit in state.

Another intriguing program in the league is Utah State but the consensus was that the Aggies are a tier down from a recruiting and job perspective.

They struggled after moving from the WAC to the Mountain West, before Craig Smith took over and led the program to three 20-win seasons and two NCAA tournament appearances (it would have been three if not for the pandemic) during his time in Logan. Can Utah State remain a consistent factor in the top-third of the league? It won't be easy for Ryan Odom, who arrived from UMBC after Smith departed for Utah.

"They were getting beat so bad when they got in the league. Then they became near the top of the league with Craig Smith. But they had two pros [Sam Merrill and Neemias Queta). Their crowd is second to San Diego State as of today. They're one of the hardest places to play because their crowds are awesome," one coach said. "It's a hard recruiting base. Utah kids have BYU and Utah, in either order, then Utah State. They're third in the pecking order. So you have to recruit internationally, you have to do well with evaluations. I thought Craig did well with them. Their starting five was kind of a hodgepodge."

Yeah, I just strongly disagree we are a tier below CSU or BSU in basketball desirableness by any metric that means anything. What have either of those programs done…ever.

I think arguments can be made for UNLV, UNM, and Nevada, and SDSU is clearly a better job.

I agree we are third fiddle in Utah. But even with that I still think that gives a better recruiting base than UNM, Boise, Wyoming, and CSU. Utah produces a lot of D1 basketball talent.

NM hasn't been good since Alford left though they did have one good year under Noodles. It really comes down to coaching there but if they get a good one they will be tough again..

UNLV is the sleeping giant but they have zero patience..They tear it up every year..

SDSU is really the flagship but haven't done much in the NCAA's

The reality is the MW isn't what it once was..It has been a sinking mid major for a few years now.

I am not all that optimistic going forward..

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 8:04 pm

NM hasn't been good since Alford left though they did have one good year under Noodles. It really comes down to coaching there but if they get a good one they will be tough again..

UNLV is the sleeping giant but they have zero patience..They tear it up every year..

SDSU is really the flagship but haven't done much in the NCAA's

The reality is the MW isn't what it once was..It has been a sinking mid major for a few years now.

I am not all that optimistic going forward..

I agree the conference isn’t anything special, which is why it feels like such a slap in the face to be seen how we are by the other coaches in the conference.

I am not sure it was all the coaches commenting.. I think you have a respected program in the MW and a nice rep throughout the west in general. But ESPN is in Connecticut and unconvinced we even have indoor plumbing out here in the sticks..

I think like all the schools in the MW it comes down to coaching..If you have a good one you can win..Unfortunately, if any of us have a good coach chances are said coach will get poached.

I try not to get caught up in any of the national respect thing.. I like the schools in the conference and Nevada is generally pretty competitive..I just try to enjoy the ride each season..

New Mexico has a money problem. As in they don’t have any.

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:57 pm

Real Life Aggie wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:47 pm

ineptimusprime wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 7:29 pm

If our recruiting is so weak, why have we currently and historically outperformed many of our more highly-regarded conference mates?

If our recruiting is so weak, why do we have the two recent NBA players that they point to to basically write off our recent success?

IMO, the only measure that makes sense to evaluate the jobs in the conference is historic and current success, and we are top 3 in both categories.

Nah, we aren't in the top 3 in historic.

So who are your top 3? SDSU, UNLV, and UNM?

I think UNM’s reputation is wildly overblown and unearned. We have more tourney appearances than any other school in the conference. The only school with any history of winning in the tourney is UNLV. How are we not Top 3?

Nevada over UNM. SDSU, UNLV, and Nevada. I think UNM has a leg up on us, but not blowing it out of the water.

slcagg wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 8:33 pm

New Mexico has a money problem. As in they don’t have any.

They just spent some large dough for Pittino. They fill the pit most nights..I don't think they are that broke..

Wake me up when Stew Morrill leaves USU for CSU. USU was a better job 20 years ago and that hasn't changed. With that fact in mind, the whole basis of the article crumbles. Fish wrap.

Ahbye wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 12:15 am

Wake me up when Stew Morrill leaves USU for CSU. USU was a better job 20 years ago and that hasn't changed. With that fact in mind, the whole basis of the article crumbles. Fish wrap.

Agreed. Add on boise. Outside of duryea and the end of the stew years boise is not in the sane tier either. Plus it’s all football there.

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 8:14 pm

I am not sure it was all the coaches commenting.. I think you have a respected program in the MW and a nice rep throughout the west in general. But ESPN is in Connecticut and unconvinced we even have indoor plumbing out here in the sticks..

It's not about ESPN being in Connecticut. It's about where ESPN's paycheck comes from. Advertising. The advertising is based on market share and big markets play a big role. ESPN would love it if the small markets would go away, but they forget that the power 5 schools need teams to beat to get wins and keep people interested.

AggieFBObsession wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 8:23 am

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 25th, 2021, 8:14 pm

I am not sure it was all the coaches commenting.. I think you have a respected program in the MW and a nice rep throughout the west in general. But ESPN is in Connecticut and unconvinced we even have indoor plumbing out here in the sticks..

It's not about ESPN being in Connecticut. It's about where ESPN's paycheck comes from. Advertising. The advertising is based on market share and big markets play a big role. ESPN would love it if the small markets would go away, but they forget that the power 5 schools need teams to beat to get wins and keep people interested.

I agree ESPN has a big market bias. But I don’t think that’s showing through in this article. I don’t know which coaches they spoke with, but if anything, the author of the article seemed surprised at the consensus of where the coaches placed us.

To me, all of the factors the coaches considered in this survey are the ingredients that go into baking the cake, and are subsumed into the results each program has, such that you really just need to look at historic and current success as the only factors. For example, if being third fiddle in Utah were really that big of a deterrent, we wouldn’t win at the level we currently do and historically did.

All that a coach should look at in the MW is ability to win to springboard to the next, bigger job, IMO.

It also sort of feels like they are completely oblivious to the program USU was before joining the MW, overemphasizing the last couple bad Stew years and Duryea years. They seem to think we are a flash in the pan that won’t be able to keep it going post Sam and Queta, calling our lineup a “hodgepodge.”

This should be on the bulletin board.

The aim of this article was recruiting...It was not about who has the best program overall.

Who has the easiest place to recruit to?

Do you guys believe Logan is easier to recruit to, than the other schools they talk about here?

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 9:13 am

The aim of this article was recruiting...It was not about who has the best program overall.

Who has the easiest place to recruit to?

Do you guys believe Logan is easier to recruit to, than the other schools they talk about here?

UNLV and SDSU are definitely easier to recruit to. I think USU is about on par with everyone else in the conference, honestly. It might be slightly more difficult to recruit to Logan because it’s a smaller metro and very Mormon, but I think we’ve shown that can be overcome.

I do agree with you that this isn’t a ranking of “best teams,” but disagree it was just about recruiting. It’s about the overall desirability of the jobs in the conference. And I think it’s heresy to say CSU and BSU are better or more basketball jobs than USU.

USU has basketball pedigree, and neither of those schools has done anything ever.

I think a coach is looking at a lot of things when pursuing a job.

pay, recruiting, travel, facilities, perks..

Coaches can and have won at USU. I would contend it is harder to do that in Logan than other places..

You should be proud of your success in the MW rather than worry what ESPN thinks..

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 9:30 am

I think a coach is looking at a lot of things when pursuing a job.

pay, recruiting, travel, facilities, perks..

Coaches can and have won at USU. I would contend it is harder to do that in Logan than other places..

You should be proud of your success in the MW rather than worry what ESPN thinks..

This isn’t what ESPN thinks. It’s a selection of what other coaches in the conference think.

If it truly is harder to win in Logan than in Fort Collins and Boise, why has there been a consistent winner in Logan but never in Fort Collins or Boise? Historical accident?

Here’s the thing I think the coaches are getting wrong. If there’s anything USU has proven, it’s that it really isn’t THAT hard to build a winner being third fiddle in Utah. Basketball is deeply engrained in LDS culture. Every meeting house has a basketball court. I do think USU rosters filled with third-tier D1 talent from Utah and surrounding states, international guys, and transfers are typically going to be better than most the MW most years.

Hell, Weber State has proven it isn’t that hard building and maintaining a winner being fourth fiddle in Utah. UVU and SUU are even having success being 5th and 6th fiddles.

My point is only that the talking points the coaches used in this survey and the one from a couple of years ago are just stupid.

Being in Utah, we have a built-in advantage in snagging a ton of 3-star LDS kids that either grew up USU fans (Merrill) or that didn’t get offers from BYU or Utah (Tai Wesley, Tyler Newbold, Cade Potter), and even some that had P5 offers or Utah and BYU offers (Dallin Grant and Brock Miller). Supplement that base with transfers and international guys, and you have a proven recipe that has served USU well for a LONG time.

It is not harder to win in Logan than anywhere else..It is harder to recruit to. But you have never had any trouble getting players..

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 10:01 am

It is not harder to win in Logan than anywhere else..It is harder to recruit to. But you have never had any trouble getting players..

It is easier to recruit LDS talent to USU than it is for anyone not named BYU or Utah. That’s really been our bread and butter.

It is definitely harder to recruit non-LDS kids to USU than it is for UNLV, Nevada, SDSU, and UNM.

I agree..RM's have been at the core of every team.

You seem to think other coaches (and they might be assistants in this article) are running your school down..I don't see that at all.

You guys generally have very little respect for your conference mates but I think the thing pissing you off is these guys saying you are the 3rd fiddle in Utah. There has never been any question that your laser focus has always been Utah and BYU..They are the source of your discontent. Always...

I agree that SDSU, UNLV, and UNM are top tier. New Mexico has been historically good and were top 10 under Alford. Utah St does have a recruiting problem. We have had good coaching under Smith, which has overcome are recruiting problems. Let me ask you this. Would you rather be a college student in Fort Collins or Logan. Unless you are LDS, the answer is Fort Collins. This is why we are below CSU.

nvspuds wrote: ↑

June 26th, 2021, 10:11 am

I agree..RM's have been at the core of every team.

You seem to think other coaches (and they might be assistants in this article) are running your school down..I don't see that at all.

You guys generally have very little respect for your conference mates but I think the thing pissing you off is these guys saying you are the 3rd fiddle in Utah. There has never been any question that your laser focus has always been Utah and BYU..They are the source of your discontent. Always...

I am not LDS and am not fixated with BYU. I acknowledge the fact that BYU and Utah are bigger programs with more appeal than USU. I have respect for our conference mates that have earned that respect. It is just a slap in the face to say that BSU or CSU are better basketball situations for a coach than USU.