Travel out of Bounds Play

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Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by AgsRock » December 5th, 2020, 10:08 pm

Will someone post video of the second to last play where Barcelona goes out of bounds. I was in the stadium and the reviews were non existent.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Yossarian » December 5th, 2020, 10:12 pm

The ref couldn't have called it because he was out of position. It should have been reviewed, though. He was so out of position he didn't realize it was close enough to take a look at the replay.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm

You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SLB » December 5th, 2020, 11:15 pm

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm
You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?
The rule going out of bounds then going in bounds to get the ball is a TO.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Mr. Sneelock » December 5th, 2020, 11:27 pm

I think if he is the last to touch it before he steps out of bounds, then nobody else touches the ball and he is the first to touch it back in bounds, the correct call would be to call it out. He may have stepped out, but it definitely wasn't clear. It was very close, and the ref was out of position. I couldn't tell on the replay for sure. I think we may have needed the reverse angle to be sure. I thought it should have been reviewed, but I am not sure if that had to be a coaches' challenge in that situation or if it can be a ref initiated review. We had previously unsuccessfully used our coaches challenge a bit earlier, so don't think we could challenge the call.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 5th, 2020, 11:38 pm

I am no rule experts but in most leagues but usually end of game situations officials make review calls. Plus Scotty and Lance commented they can do unlimited reviews. They may be wrong but it’s a head scratcher it wasn’t reviewed. Again may not have reversed call but when very little effort is made on some very questionable and reviewable calls but time is spent reviewing easy calls + spending 10 minutes deciding on a double T = upset fans at officials



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SLB » December 5th, 2020, 11:41 pm

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:38 pm
I am no rule experts but in most leagues but usually end of game situations officials make review calls. Plus Scotty and Lance commented they can do unlimited reviews. They may be wrong but it’s a head scratcher it wasn’t reviewed. Again may not have reversed call but when very little effort is made on some very questionable and reviewable calls but time is spent reviewing easy calls + spending 10 minutes deciding on a double T = upset fans at officials
Refs made a point to be really bad in big moments in this game.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Mr. Sneelock » December 5th, 2020, 11:43 pm

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:38 pm
I am no rule experts but in most leagues but usually end of game situations officials make review calls. Plus Scotty and Lance commented they can do unlimited reviews. They may be wrong but it’s a head scratcher it wasn’t reviewed. Again may not have reversed call but when very little effort is made on some very questionable and reviewable calls but time is spent reviewing easy calls + spending 10 minutes deciding on a double T = upset fans at officials
Yeah, I really don't know the rule on reviews in that situation. Again, I wasn't watching during the technical call, so I can't comment on that. Fans of the losing team in a close game against a rival are often mad at the refs. That's part of the game and part of the fun of attending a game in person. I often have to remind myself that the refs probably aren't biased, but I definitely, 100% am. When I am tempted to blame the refs, I have to remind myself of that. 99.9% of the time the refs don't care who wins. They aren't perfect. They are just trying to do their jobs and get the calls right.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 5th, 2020, 11:52 pm

Refs are human so mistakes get made. To think that they don’t have biases is curious. So a player, coach or fan questioning them or saying something they don’t like won’t lead to calls against them? They may not “care” who wins but they certainly like making calls in certain circumstances.

Look I get the fans are irrational and loser mentality blaming refs. I’ve stated many times the aggies had MULTIPLE chances. Not all games are officiated perfectly but to think calls don’t affect outcomes or that these guys don’t hold grudges is questionable.

What is it called - god complex? See it all the time with those in “control” - politicians, DR, law enforcement, officials, management



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SLB » December 6th, 2020, 12:02 am

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:52 pm
Refs are human so mistakes get made. To think that they don’t have biases is curious. So a player, coach or fan questioning them or saying something they don’t like won’t lead to calls against them? They may not “care” who wins but they certainly like making calls in certain circumstances.

Look I get the fans are irrational and loser mentality blaming refs. I’ve stated many times the aggies had MULTIPLE chances. Not all games are officiated perfectly but to think calls don’t affect outcomes or that these guys don’t hold grudges is questionable.

What is it called - god complex? See it all the time with those in “control” - politicians, DR, law enforcement, officials, management
That non-replay at the end and no ref watching should end with some internal punishment for those refs. It is an unacceptable behavior and enforcement of the rules. This should never happen at any level of basketball especially D1 games.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Mr. Sneelock » December 6th, 2020, 12:06 am

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:52 pm
Refs are human so mistakes get made. To think that they don’t have biases is curious. So a player, coach or fan questioning them or saying something they don’t like won’t lead to calls against them? They may not “care” who wins but they certainly like making calls in certain circumstances.

Look I get the fans are irrational and loser mentality blaming refs. I’ve stated many times the aggies had MULTIPLE chances. Not all games are officiated perfectly but to think calls don’t affect outcomes or that these guys don’t hold grudges is questionable.

What is it called - god complex? See it all the time with those in “control” - politicians, DR, law enforcement, officials, management
Yeah, you do have a good point there, and I am sure there are some minor biases created there, but I don't think it necessarily benefits one side or the other. Also, refs are evaluated by their employers based upon their performance. This is their job, and I don't think they are going out trying to screw one team for some unknown reason. Also, refereeing is really hard. Anyone who has reffed any sport at any level can attest to that.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 6th, 2020, 12:10 am

SLB wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:02 am
SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:52 pm
Refs are human so mistakes get made. To think that they don’t have biases is curious. So a player, coach or fan questioning them or saying something they don’t like won’t lead to calls against them? They may not “care” who wins but they certainly like making calls in certain circumstances.

Look I get the fans are irrational and loser mentality blaming refs. I’ve stated many times the aggies had MULTIPLE chances. Not all games are officiated perfectly but to think calls don’t affect outcomes or that these guys don’t hold grudges is questionable.

What is it called - god complex? See it all the time with those in “control” - politicians, DR, law enforcement, officials, management
That non-replay at the end and no ref watching should end with some internal punishment for those refs. It is an unacceptable behavior and enforcement of the rules. This should never happen at any level of basketball especially D1 games.
Yeah it’s common sense if no one had good view to take a look at a real critical point of game. And as I’ve stated that review could conclude still BYU ball or that certain rules can’t be called in review. Guess it should be expected from same official which was so out of position earlier whom overturned call he clearly could not see. He obviously has great vision



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by aggies22 » December 6th, 2020, 12:11 am

SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm
You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?
I was at the game and this play literally happened right in front of me. The dude CLEARLY stepped out of bounds, came back in and secured the ball.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SLB » December 6th, 2020, 12:17 am

aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:11 am
SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm
You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?
I was at the game and this play literally happened right in front of me. The dude CLEARLY stepped out of bounds, came back in and secured the ball.
The camera angle showed that too.
The blocked area lined up with the out of bounds which his foot crossed.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Mr. Sneelock » December 6th, 2020, 12:17 am

aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:11 am
SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm
You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?
I was at the game and this play literally happened right in front of me. The dude CLEARLY stepped out of bounds, came back in and secured the ball.
That may be (definitely not disagreeing with you), but on the replay they showed a couple of times on the stream, it definitely wasn't very clear, especially from the camera angle behind the play. I doubt the ref could have had a very good angle either from behind. It was very close, but hard to tell. There may have been other camera angles, but if they only had what they showed on the stream, I am not sure they would have changed the call. I don't know, maybe I am wrong, but it definitely wasn't clear to me.

Does someone have a replay?
Last edited by Mr. Sneelock on December 6th, 2020, 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 6th, 2020, 12:18 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:06 am
SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:52 pm
Refs are human so mistakes get made. To think that they don’t have biases is curious. So a player, coach or fan questioning them or saying something they don’t like won’t lead to calls against them? They may not “care” who wins but they certainly like making calls in certain circumstances.

Look I get the fans are irrational and loser mentality blaming refs. I’ve stated many times the aggies had MULTIPLE chances. Not all games are officiated perfectly but to think calls don’t affect outcomes or that these guys don’t hold grudges is questionable.

What is it called - god complex? See it all the time with those in “control” - politicians, DR, law enforcement, officials, management
Yeah, you do have a good point there, and I am sure there are some minor biases created there, but I don't think it necessarily benefits one side or the other. Also, refs are evaluated by their employers based upon their performance. This is their job, and I don't think they are going out trying to screw one team for some unknown reason. Also, refereeing is really hard. Anyone who has reffed any sport at any level can attest to that.
They are evaluated but it’s not made public and time and time again some pretty terrible officials still have jobs. There is no accountability or transparency - blow calls nothing happens. Perfect example Angel Hernandez a baseball umpire or PAC-12 officials. If you continually miss similar calls or receive poor grades maybe you should get demoted to say D2 or lower league.

Being an official is a thankless job and is difficult but there is to much money in sports now with gambling and high priced coaching staffs to roll out guys with no consequences



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SpectrumMagic » December 6th, 2020, 12:20 am

Mr. Sneelock wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:17 am
aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 12:11 am
SpectrumMagic wrote:
December 5th, 2020, 11:13 pm
You have to have both feet back in bounds and established in court of play. Did Barcello do that? I believe he did not touch ball while feet out of bounds. Did ball ever touch OB? Was a pretty heady play by him - pretty inexcusable that wasn’t reviewed. May not have changed call but what made them review two calls two which were not close at all - but not the over ruled call or end of game call?
I was at the game and this play literally happened right in front of me. The dude CLEARLY stepped out of bounds, came back in and secured the ball.
That may be (definitely not disagreeing with you), but on the replay they showed a couple of times on the stream, it definitely wasn't very clear, especially from the camera angle behind the play. I doubt the ref could have had a very good angle either from behind. It was very close, but hard to tell. There may have been other camera angles, but if they only had what they showed on the stream, I am not sure they would have changed the call. I don't know, maybe I am wrong, bit it definitely wasn't clear to me.

Does someone have a replay?
That may have been case. What I and many others continue to comment on is total lack of being interested in conducting a replay



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Blitz79 » December 6th, 2020, 6:50 am

Well it wasn't a travel as he took two steps and released the ball and he didn't have possession when he stepped out of bounds. He took multiple steps inbounds before getting the ball again. Unless there is a rule that I am not aware of, the refs got it 100% correct. In football you can't be the first to touch the ball after going out of bounds. Basketball doesn't have that rule.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by boyblue » December 6th, 2020, 8:35 am

Blitz79 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 6:50 am
Well it wasn't a travel as he took two steps and released the ball and he didn't have possession when he stepped out of bounds. He took multiple steps inbounds before getting the ball again. Unless there is a rule that I am not aware of, the refs got it 100% correct. In football you can't be the first to touch the ball after going out of bounds. Basketball doesn't have that rule.
Basketball does have the rule that you can't save the ball to yourself, which is what happened. Barcello's reaction in the corner was obvious that he thought he stepped out of bounds. He hovered over the ball not wanting to touch it.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by AGinNEIowa » December 6th, 2020, 9:19 am

boyblue wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 8:35 am
Blitz79 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 6:50 am
Well it wasn't a travel as he took two steps and released the ball and he didn't have possession when he stepped out of bounds. He took multiple steps inbounds before getting the ball again. Unless there is a rule that I am not aware of, the refs got it 100% correct. In football you can't be the first to touch the ball after going out of bounds. Basketball doesn't have that rule.
Basketball does have the rule that you can't save the ball to yourself, which is what happened. Barcello's reaction in the corner was obvious that he thought he stepped out of bounds. He hovered over the ball not wanting to touch it.
he didn't really save the ball to himself, as he was grabbed for the foul before he re-touched the ball.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by tkmad » December 6th, 2020, 10:39 am

Watching from home and seeing replays, I don't think he ever stepped out of bounds. At least nothing that showed it "without a doubt". I think the byu player was worried about it though, as he didn't immediately grab the ball after. He kind of hovered over it trying to keep Queta away.

I think Queta also fouled the player prior to the byu player touching the ball a second time.

The play did make me wonder about the rule here. Couldn't find anything super conclusive but here's a post from a referee forum on it:



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by aggies22 » December 6th, 2020, 10:50 am

tkmad wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:39 am
Watching from home and seeing replays, I don't think he ever stepped out of bounds. At least nothing that showed it "without a doubt". I think the byu player was worried about it though, as he didn't immediately grab the ball after. He kind of hovered over it trying to keep Queta away.

I think Queta also fouled the player prior to the byu player touching the ball a second time.

The play did make me wonder about the rule here. Couldn't find anything super conclusive but here's a post from a referee forum on it:



Image
I PROMISE you all! I was RIGHT there! Borcello stepped out of bounds.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by tkmad » December 6th, 2020, 11:00 am

aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:50 am
tkmad wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:39 am
Watching from home and seeing replays, I don't think he ever stepped out of bounds. At least nothing that showed it "without a doubt". I think the byu player was worried about it though, as he didn't immediately grab the ball after. He kind of hovered over it trying to keep Queta away.

I think Queta also fouled the player prior to the byu player touching the ball a second time.

The play did make me wonder about the rule here. Couldn't find anything super conclusive but here's a post from a referee forum on it:



Image
I PROMISE you all! I was RIGHT there! Borcello stepped out of bounds.

He probably did.... But even if he stepped out of bounds and a ref was there, I don't think it is a violation.



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by tkmad » December 6th, 2020, 11:35 am

The play that really irked me was the play that involved Ashworth where it went out of bounds and the ref standing right by the play called it usu ball but then the ref at mid Court overturned it. Byu hit a 3 after getting ball back. Replay clearly showed it off byu player IMO. Huge impact.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by TrueBlueFan » December 6th, 2020, 12:37 pm

Y’all....the son of a b**** stepped out. Proof.

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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by GameFAQSAggie » December 6th, 2020, 12:49 pm




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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Real Life Aggie » December 6th, 2020, 3:10 pm

aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:50 am
tkmad wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:39 am
Watching from home and seeing replays, I don't think he ever stepped out of bounds. At least nothing that showed it "without a doubt". I think the byu player was worried about it though, as he didn't immediately grab the ball after. He kind of hovered over it trying to keep Queta away.

I think Queta also fouled the player prior to the byu player touching the ball a second time.

The play did make me wonder about the rule here. Couldn't find anything super conclusive but here's a post from a referee forum on it:



Image
I PROMISE you all! I was RIGHT there! Borcello stepped out of bounds.
Haven't all of us on here realized to disagree with 22 is to err?



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by aggies22 » December 6th, 2020, 3:49 pm

Real Life Aggie wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 3:10 pm
aggies22 wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:50 am
tkmad wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 10:39 am
Watching from home and seeing replays, I don't think he ever stepped out of bounds. At least nothing that showed it "without a doubt". I think the byu player was worried about it though, as he didn't immediately grab the ball after. He kind of hovered over it trying to keep Queta away.

I think Queta also fouled the player prior to the byu player touching the ball a second time.

The play did make me wonder about the rule here. Couldn't find anything super conclusive but here's a post from a referee forum on it:



Image
I PROMISE you all! I was RIGHT there! Borcello stepped out of bounds.
Haven't all of us on here realized to disagree with 22 is to err?
Although I'm sure this is a joke, I will say it's okay to disagree. I'm simply 100% confident in what I saw. It sounds like the TV crew didn't get a good shot.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by pablohoney » December 6th, 2020, 3:50 pm

Even if he did step out, which I do believe that he did, he was not touching the ball while he was out and Queta fouled him with the push on the hip before Barcello repossessed the ball. So even in a review, I think you'd have to say that the foul occurred before the ball was touched by the re-entering player. I'm more concerned that the Worster and 1 was bungled.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by freakboy » December 6th, 2020, 6:15 pm

pablohoney wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Even if he did step out, which I do believe that he did, he was not touching the ball while he was out and Queta fouled him with the push on the hip before Barcello repossessed the ball. So even in a review, I think you'd have to say that the foul occurred before the ball was touched by the re-entering player. I'm more concerned that the Worster and 1 was bungled.
I think NCAA refs disallow shots of that nature out of principle regardless of how quickly the shot is attempted after a foul because they feel like the player is trying to exploit a loophole ... or something.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by AGinNEIowa » December 6th, 2020, 6:16 pm

pablohoney wrote:
December 6th, 2020, 3:50 pm
Even if he did step out, which I do believe that he did, he was not touching the ball while he was out and Queta fouled him with the push on the hip before Barcello repossessed the ball. So even in a review, I think you'd have to say that the foul occurred before the ball was touched by the re-entering player. I'm more concerned that the Worster and 1 was bungled.
I just watched the clip again - even the photo posted which shows his foot out-of-bounds on the baseline (hat tip to "22" for attesting that the photo is correct :) ) you can see the ball is about 3 feet away from him. Then Queta grabs him by the mid-section before he touches the ball again. Queta would have been better to let him go, because he wouldn't have recovered the ball without stepping out on the sideline.

oh, and Wurster - he was fouled before he even touched the rebound, let alone the put-back.
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treesap32
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by treesap32 » December 9th, 2020, 12:17 am

Barcello traveled. NCAA Rulebook:

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can then be the pivot foot.

Article 2.a.2 comes into play in this instance.

Barcello caught the ball while both feet were off the playing court (2a). He then landed on one foot (2) establishing it as his pivot foot. He then lifted that pivot foot to land on his second foot, immediately traveling. All of that occurred before he even attempted to dribble.

So yes, he traveled. He then stepped out of bounds, arguably without possession of the ball and was apparently fouled by Queta before he touched the ball again. But that point should have been moot because he traveled before any of that happened.
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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by TrueBlueFan » December 9th, 2020, 12:36 am

treesap32 wrote:
December 9th, 2020, 12:17 am
Barcello traveled. NCAA Rulebook:

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can then be the pivot foot.

Article 2.a.2 comes into play in this instance.

Barcello caught the ball while both feet were off the playing court (2a). He then landed on one foot (2) establishing it as his pivot foot. He then lifted that pivot foot to land on his second foot, immediately traveling. All of that occurred before he even attempted to dribble.

So yes, he traveled. He then stepped out of bounds, arguably without possession of the ball and was apparently fouled by Queta before he touched the ball again. But that point should have been moot because he traveled before any of that happened.
Thank you! Great find and explanation.


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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by SLB » December 9th, 2020, 7:02 pm

treesap32 wrote:
December 9th, 2020, 12:17 am
Barcello traveled. NCAA Rulebook:

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.
b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a step;
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can then be the pivot foot.

Article 2.a.2 comes into play in this instance.

Barcello caught the ball while both feet were off the playing court (2a). He then landed on one foot (2) establishing it as his pivot foot. He then lifted that pivot foot to land on his second foot, immediately traveling. All of that occurred before he even attempted to dribble.

So yes, he traveled. He then stepped out of bounds, arguably without possession of the ball and was apparently fouled by Queta before he touched the ball again. But that point should have been moot because he traveled before any of that happened.
Also double dribble and out of bounds then coming back in bounds



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Re: Travel out of Bounds Play

Post by Pacobag » December 9th, 2020, 8:22 pm

I'm not 100% certain that he stepped out of bounds. It looks very close.

It would be more obvious if we had an angle where the out of bounds line was between the camera and the player's foot. I think it should have been reviewed and it is the fault of the refs that they weren't in a good position to see it as it happened.



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