Time for change

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am

I love having Smith as our coach, and I'll trust him to do what's right for this team, but I'd like to see us accept the new direction of basketball. The traditional PG position is a dinosaur, and has been replaced by the PBH (primary ball handler). This is the team's best player as long as he has handles, so naturally you want them to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.

I'd like to see Merrill be the PBH going forward and we start the game without our traditional PGs Ainge and Porter. Then have Porter come in with the bench players and let Ainge rest up for his eventual transfer. I'd start Merrill, Miller, Bean, Taylor, and Queta. I think we're going to see better things from TK going forward, and hopefully he can gain enough confidence to be the PBH with the backups, but for now Brito and Porter can manage in the few minutes that Merrill sits out.

Aggie84025 · Post by **Aggie84025** » January 17th, 2019, 9:39 am

I like this idea although I think I would start Brito instead of Bean. Merrill makes really good decisions with the ball and get others involved with his passing.

Blue42 · Post by **Blue42** » January 17th, 2019, 9:55 am

My only concern with this is that I feel Merrill is a better scorer off-ball. I think he does better as a spot-up shooter and isn’t as good at creating his own buckets like LeBron, Harden, Simmons, etc. I think his scoring has dipped since he started handling the ball more.

That said, I definitely trust him with the ball and think he can create better than Ainge or Porter by a long shot. I think he’s our best option to handle the ball at this point. I just feel like we would be better utilizing his skill set if he could play off-ball more.

bpd · Post by **bpd** » January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am

In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.

NAggsty Butler · Post by **NAggsty Butler** » January 17th, 2019, 10:16 am

Me with my extremely limited basketball knowledge reading this thread-

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 17th, 2019, 10:17 am

Blue42 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 9:55 am
My only concern with this is that I feel Merrill is a better scorer off-ball. I think he does better as a spot-up shooter and isn’t as good at creating his own buckets like LeBron, Harden, Simmons, etc. I think his scoring has dipped since he started handling the ball more.

That said, I definitely trust him with the ball and think he can create better than Ainge or Porter by a long shot. I think he’s our best option to handle the ball at this point. I just feel like we would be better utilizing his skill set if he could play off-ball more.

Ideally we'd recruit someone better for next year to allow Merrill to return to being off the ball. This season however I think he's the best option.

Blue42 · Post by **Blue42** » January 17th, 2019, 10:47 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.

I think you’re spot on with this. I think end of the game against Fresno was another example of where a true ball handler was needed. We needed someone to get the ball up the court quickly, then find Sam or Queta to score it. Instead we had Sam bring the ball up, and try to get a tough three off with two or three guys in his face. If he’s off the ball there instead of bringing up the court, I think he could’ve gotten a much better look. If the defense was focusing too much on him, we should’ve had Queta down low for a quick lay-up since we were only down one. During the course of games, I think we’re fine having Sam bring the ball up. Late in tight games, I think it may hurt us like against Fresno.

Post by **AggiesForever** » January 17th, 2019, 10:49 am

You know what Jerry Sloan said about taking advice about which players to play from fans, don't you?

"If you start taking coaching advice from the fans in the stands, you'll soon find yourself sitting with them!"

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 17th, 2019, 10:52 am

Blue42 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:47 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I think you’re spot on with this. I think end of the game against Fresno was another example of where a true ball handler was needed. We needed someone to get the ball up the court quickly, then find Sam or Queta to score it. Instead we had Sam bring the ball up, and try to get a tough three off with two or three guys in his face. If he’s off the ball there instead of bringing up the court, I think he could’ve gotten a much better look. If the defense was focusing too much on him, we should’ve had Queta down low for a quick lay-up since we were only down one. During the course of games, I think we’re fine having Sam bring the ball up. Late in tight games, I think it may hurt us like against Fresno.

Is there a player currently on the roster who fits this description?

If you look at the Jazz right now, as another example, they are playing much better with Mitchell as their PBH rather than their traditional style PG Rubio.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » January 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

I'm with Hipster. We don't have a PG worth playing so we should stop playing one. Put our best players out there, move and pass. One guy hammering the ball up and down and everything running through them isn't even the best way to play basketball anyway.

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » January 17th, 2019, 11:36 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.

I don't believe this is true, five guys moving and passing will break a press much faster than one guy dribbling. The fastest thing on the court is the ball. Cliché, I know, but true.

Passing to break the press has to be coached, most coaches don't spend time on this, they just expect one fast guy with a good handle to take care of it. Even when Stew had a PG who could do it, he taught his team to move and pass their way out of a press and, as long as the team moved and passed, it worked.

Blue42 · Post by **Blue42** » January 17th, 2019, 12:15 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:52 am

Blue42 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:47 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I think you’re spot on with this. I think end of the game against Fresno was another example of where a true ball handler was needed. We needed someone to get the ball up the court quickly, then find Sam or Queta to score it. Instead we had Sam bring the ball up, and try to get a tough three off with two or three guys in his face. If he’s off the ball there instead of bringing up the court, I think he could’ve gotten a much better look. If the defense was focusing too much on him, we should’ve had Queta down low for a quick lay-up since we were only down one. During the course of games, I think we’re fine having Sam bring the ball up. Late in tight games, I think it may hurt us like against Fresno.
Is there a player currently on the roster who fits this description?

If you look at the Jazz right now, as another example, they are playing much better with Mitchell as their PBH rather than their traditional style PG Rubio.

To answer your question, no there isn’t anyone on this year’s roster who would do it better than Sam is. I think you’re right that he’s our best option this year. I’m just hoping we have a better ball handler next year (whether that is a new recruit, a transfer, or Knight stepping up his play) to avoid situations like that, and help make the most of Sam’s skill set.

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 17th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Blue42 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 12:15 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:52 am

Blue42 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:47 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I think you’re spot on with this. I think end of the game against Fresno was another example of where a true ball handler was needed. We needed someone to get the ball up the court quickly, then find Sam or Queta to score it. Instead we had Sam bring the ball up, and try to get a tough three off with two or three guys in his face. If he’s off the ball there instead of bringing up the court, I think he could’ve gotten a much better look. If the defense was focusing too much on him, we should’ve had Queta down low for a quick lay-up since we were only down one. During the course of games, I think we’re fine having Sam bring the ball up. Late in tight games, I think it may hurt us like against Fresno.
Is there a player currently on the roster who fits this description?

If you look at the Jazz right now, as another example, they are playing much better with Mitchell as their PBH rather than their traditional style PG Rubio.
To answer your question, no there isn’t anyone on this year’s roster who would do it better than Sam is. I think you’re right that he’s our best option this year. I’m just hoping we have a better ball handler next year (whether that is a new recruit, a transfer, or Knight stepping up his play) to avoid situations like that, and help make the most of Sam’s skill set.

Agreed, I'd prefer Sam have help to share the PHB duties.

And brownjeans you put it better than me. One guy pounding the ball helps the defense, it's doesn't challenge them. It's the reason Westbrook hasn't won the past 2-3 years.

AGGIEinIOWA · Post by **AGGIEinIOWA** » January 17th, 2019, 1:20 pm

Personally I wouldn’t mind playing Brito more at the point. He did it last year some when Koby was injured. He is a capable passer and can hit the 3. His ball handling is adequate for most opposition. He also works hard on defense and has good size for a pg. He won’t break people down off the dribble but we can split pg minutes with TK for a change of pace. Give them each 15-20 minutes a game at the position and then let Brito play the 2 or 3 for another 10 minutes. Brito can have his off nights but he plays within the system well and probably has the most assists per minute on the team. Free Sam up to play off the ball more.

aggieaz · Post by **aggieaz** » January 17th, 2019, 3:16 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I love having Smith as our coach, and I'll trust him to do what's right for this team, but I'd like to see us accept the new direction of basketball. The traditional PG position is a dinosaur, and has been replaced by the PBH (primary ball handler). This is the team's best player as long as he has handles, so naturally you want them to have the ball in their hands as much as possible. I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.

I'd like to see Merrill be the PBH going forward and we start the game without our traditional PGs Ainge and Porter. Then have Porter come in with the bench players and let Ainge rest up for his eventual transfer. I'd start Merrill, Miller, Bean, Taylor, and Queta. I think we're going to see better things from TK going forward, and hopefully he can gain enough confidence to be the PBH with the backups, but for now Brito and Porter can manage in the few minutes that Merrill sits out.

I would second this motion. IMO a taller line up would be better. My picks would be Merrill, Bean, Brito, Taylor and Queta. With Brown and TK to be the first subs. Nick Hammer is a friend of mine, he said the Aggies struggle the most from their lack of height when facing strong teams. These five seem to compliment each other, which is another important factor with rotations.

ChicAggie · Post by **ChicAggie** » January 17th, 2019, 3:34 pm

I noticed that Brito made probably the two best entry passes to Queta last night. Seems like a pretty good passer, but his A/TO ratio is not great.

sneed · Post by **sneed** » January 17th, 2019, 3:34 pm

brownjeans wrote:
bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I don't believe this is true, five guys moving and passing will break a press much faster than one guy dribbling. The fastest thing on the court is the ball. Cliché, I know, but true.

Passing to break the press has to be coached, most coaches don't spend time on this, they just expect one fast guy with a good handle to take care of it. Even when Stew had a PG who could do it, he taught his team to move and pass their way out of a press and, as long as the team moved and passed, it worked.

I thought this was one of bigger weaknesses most years with Stew. I was never comfortable when teams pressed. Maybe more an athleticism/quickness problem than scheme though.

I’m not a fan of Sam as the PBH. He gets enough touches, double teams, and asked to guard their best defender as it is now. Try having Brito bring it down when we don’t have a PG out there - Switch to Sam if issues come up. I would rather have a less tired Sam out there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

USUBlue · Post by **USUBlue** » January 17th, 2019, 4:33 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 11:36 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I don't believe this is true, five guys moving and passing will break a press much faster than one guy dribbling. The fastest thing on the court is the ball. Cliché, I know, but true.

Passing to break the press has to be coached, most coaches don't spend time on this, they just expect one fast guy with a good handle to take care of it. Even when Stew had a PG who could do it, he taught his team to move and pass their way out of a press and, as long as the team moved and passed, it worked.

Your first point is so true -- and Smith's press break works great and attacks the other team's press. That's why you don't see teams stay in it very long. It costs them more than it benefits them.

As for Stew's press break, I've said it before -- it was my least favorite part of Stew's coaching. He constantly taught his players to slowly move it up against the press to the point that players would catch the ball in the middle of the court (text book) and then look backwards to find an outlet instead of looking down court to advance the ball. That's why Stew's teams were pressed often and that they seemed to get some benefit out of it.

In short, Smith's press break is far better than Stew's.

Donman · Post by **Donman** » January 17th, 2019, 5:03 pm

USUBlue wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 4:33 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 11:36 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I don't believe this is true, five guys moving and passing will break a press much faster than one guy dribbling. The fastest thing on the court is the ball. Cliché, I know, but true.

Passing to break the press has to be coached, most coaches don't spend time on this, they just expect one fast guy with a good handle to take care of it. Even when Stew had a PG who could do it, he taught his team to move and pass their way out of a press and, as long as the team moved and passed, it worked.
Your first point is so true -- and Smith's press break works great and attacks the other team's press. That's why you don't see teams stay in it very long. It costs them more than it benefits them.

As for Stew's press break, I've said it before -- it was my least favorite part of Stew's coaching. He constantly taught his players to slowly move it up against the press to the point that players would catch the ball in the middle of the court (text book) and then look backwards to find an outlet instead of looking down court to advance the ball. That's why Stew's teams were pressed often and that they seemed to get some benefit out of it.

In short, Smith's press break is far better than Stew's.

The way you get a team to not press you, is to turn their break into easy baskets. USUBlue is right. Stew's team seldom did that. i don't Duryea's did either. If you are simply going to go slow and then set up your offense (with less time for that offense to run a play) and not face any consequences, why not press?

brownjeans · Post by **brownjeans** » January 17th, 2019, 5:04 pm

USUBlue wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 4:33 pm

brownjeans wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 11:36 am

bpd wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:02 am
In the NBA, sure, it works. Even in college it works most of the time. But you need a true PG when teams press, like New Mexico, UNLV, SDSU sometimes. That way you have a true ball handler and it doesn't wear the legs out of your shooter. I also like the ability of TK because he pretty much is the only one who can penetrate. Sam and Abel are decent at it, but not great.
I don't believe this is true, five guys moving and passing will break a press much faster than one guy dribbling. The fastest thing on the court is the ball. Cliché, I know, but true.

Passing to break the press has to be coached, most coaches don't spend time on this, they just expect one fast guy with a good handle to take care of it. Even when Stew had a PG who could do it, he taught his team to move and pass their way out of a press and, as long as the team moved and passed, it worked.
Your first point is so true -- and Smith's press break works great and attacks the other team's press. That's why you don't see teams stay in it very long. It costs them more than it benefits them.

As for Stew's press break, I've said it before -- it was my least favorite part of Stew's coaching. He constantly taught his players to slowly move it up against the press to the point that players would catch the ball in the middle of the court (text book) and then look backwards to find an outlet instead of looking down court to advance the ball. That's why Stew's teams were pressed often and that they seemed to get some benefit out of it.

In short, Smith's press break is far better than Stew's.

I agree. Smith teaches fast movement of ball and people. Too often Stew's guys would pick up their dribble and get stuck.

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 17th, 2019, 9:08 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.

Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway....

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 17th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 9:08 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway....

But all three of those guys were still pass first PGs for the most part no? My point wasn’t so much the size of the PBH.

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 18th, 2019, 6:26 am

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 9:08 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway....
But all three of those guys were still pass first PGs for the most part no? My point wasn’t so much the size of the PBH.

Score first PBH like Jerry West and Allen Iverson... or taller capable scorers that could often lead their team in assists like Larry Bird.

Ben Simmons seems like a “pass first” PBH considering his career points to assist ratio.

Excluding dribbling the ball up the court, many great scorers have had the ball in their hands more than their teammates. Jordan & Kobe obviously did.

NVAggie · Post by **NVAggie** » January 18th, 2019, 9:29 am

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 9:08 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway....
But all three of those guys were still pass first PGs for the most part no? My point wasn’t so much the size of the PBH.

It's always about size hipster.

hipsterdoofus21 · Post by **hipsterdoofus21** » January 18th, 2019, 9:49 am

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 18th, 2019, 6:26 am

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 10:01 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 9:08 pm

hipsterdoofus21 wrote: ↑
January 17th, 2019, 8:50 am
I think this change in thinking happened when Lebron emerged and we saw that a 6'9" guy could essentially be the PG. Since Lebron's arrival, you've seen guys like Harden and Ben Simmons come along and fortify the new trend.
Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Penny Hardaway....
But all three of those guys were still pass first PGs for the most part no? My point wasn’t so much the size of the PBH.
Score first PBH like Jerry West and Allen Iverson... or taller capable scorers that could often lead their team in assists like Larry Bird.

Ben Simmons seems like a “pass first” PBH considering his career points to assist ratio.

Excluding dribbling the ball up the court, many great scorers have had the ball in their hands more than their teammates. Jordan & Kobe obviously did.

Good points, by both you Pacobag and NVAggie.

ChicAggie · Post by **ChicAggie** » January 18th, 2019, 10:07 am

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 18th, 2019, 6:26 am
Excluding dribbling the ball up the court, many great scorers have had the ball in their hands more than their teammates. Jordan & Kobe obviously did.

And who can forget the great Ralph Sampson playing the occasional role as "Point Center?" Guys like Barkley, Carmelo, McGrady, and Garnett also liked to have the ball in their hands -- even bringing it up court.

Pacobag · Post by **Pacobag** » January 18th, 2019, 12:17 pm

ChicAggie wrote: ↑
January 18th, 2019, 10:07 am

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 18th, 2019, 6:26 am
Excluding dribbling the ball up the court, many great scorers have had the ball in their hands more than their teammates. Jordan & Kobe obviously did.
And who can forget the great Ralph Sampson playing the occasional role as "Point Center?" Guys like Barkley, Carmelo, McGrady, and Garnett also liked to have the ball in their hands -- even bringing it up court.

I don’t have any data to back it up but it seems a lot more prevalent for non “true point guards” to bring the ball up the floor in the pros today. Part of ”positionless” basketball I assume.

ChicAggie · Post by **ChicAggie** » January 18th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Pacobag wrote: ↑
January 18th, 2019, 12:17 pm
it seems a lot more prevalent for non “true point guards” to bring the ball up the floor in the pros today

Agreed.

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