DE Position

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DE Position

Post by ROLLEOVERHORDEMANN » July 12th, 2021, 11:10 pm

Which 2 start at the DE position out of Heninger, Vaughns, and Joyner?

I want all 3 to be on the field at the same time.



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Re: DE Position

Post by Roy McAvoy » July 12th, 2021, 11:17 pm

ROLLEOVERHORDEMAN wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:10 pm
Which 2 start at the DE position out of Heninger, Vaughns, and Joyner?

I want all 3 to be on the field at the same time.
I think it’ll be Vaughns & Heninger with Joyner splitting reps with Heninger mostly.
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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 13th, 2021, 9:28 am

Roy McAvoy wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:17 pm
ROLLEOVERHORDEMAN wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:10 pm
Which 2 start at the DE position out of Heninger, Vaughns, and Joyner?

I want all 3 to be on the field at the same time.
I think it’ll be Vaughns & Heninger with Joyner splitting reps with Heninger mostly.
Joyner was pretty good during spring ball. Hobbs-Vaughns has definitely solidified his spot. The battle between Heninger and Joyner will be a damn good one.
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Re: DE Position

Post by slcagg » July 13th, 2021, 11:00 am

aggies22 wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:28 am
Roy McAvoy wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:17 pm
ROLLEOVERHORDEMAN wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:10 pm
Which 2 start at the DE position out of Heninger, Vaughns, and Joyner?

I want all 3 to be on the field at the same time.
I think it’ll be Vaughns & Heninger with Joyner splitting reps with Heninger mostly.
Joyner was pretty good during spring ball. Hobbs-Vaughns has definitely solidified his spot. The battle between Heninger and Joyner will be a damn good one.
If Joyner is pushing heninger that is huge. Heninger was very productive as a de.



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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 13th, 2021, 11:07 am

slcagg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 11:00 am
aggies22 wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:28 am
Roy McAvoy wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:17 pm
ROLLEOVERHORDEMAN wrote:
July 12th, 2021, 11:10 pm
Which 2 start at the DE position out of Heninger, Vaughns, and Joyner?

I want all 3 to be on the field at the same time.
I think it’ll be Vaughns & Heninger with Joyner splitting reps with Heninger mostly.
Joyner was pretty good during spring ball. Hobbs-Vaughns has definitely solidified his spot. The battle between Heninger and Joyner will be a damn good one.
If Joyner is pushing heninger that is huge. Heninger was very productive as a de.
I think Patrick Joyner will be a very good player for us.
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Re: DE Position

Post by hickaggie » July 13th, 2021, 4:47 pm

It will be so nice to develop 2 deep at that position. In whatever mess of a defense the Aggies were supposedly playing the last two years I thought Henigar was the most physically capable and mentally sound lineman for being able to handle the edge, off tackle power, and the pass rush together. If we have guys as good or better than him that bodes very well for a 4 man front with Rice roaming the middle.
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Re: DE Position

Post by AGGIEinIOWA » July 13th, 2021, 5:59 pm

Any predictions on who will step in and be the # 4 DE? Will Bannerman step up or will Mata develop into a contributor? Or someone else? I think Maile will be good eventually but is he ready to step in right away?



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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 13th, 2021, 7:45 pm

AGGIEinIOWA wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 5:59 pm
Any predictions on who will step in and be the # 4 DE? Will Bannerman step up or will Mata develop into a contributor? Or someone else? I think Maile will be good eventually but is he ready to step in right away?
I think initially it will be Bannerman.



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Re: DE Position

Post by El Sapo » July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm

These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
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Re: DE Position

Post by GeoAg » July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm

El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 13th, 2021, 9:37 pm

GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
I was going to say the same thing. Well done my Aggie brother.



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Re: DE Position

Post by El Sapo » July 14th, 2021, 9:01 am

GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
I agree we will be better than last season on defense. That's a given. we only won one game. I'm just throwing out some options for what our defense set could be.

The smaller quicker guys are supposed to be linebackers / striker not defensive ends. I seriously doubt you can find a starting Miami DE who weighs 230. But I'm often wrong. Show me one.

We should be looking at Air Force anyway, not Miami. AF has 230lbs fullbacks and 225lbs -245lbs tight ends. Those guys negating our DE's is a problem.



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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 14th, 2021, 9:12 am

El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:01 am
GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
I agree we will be better than last season on defense. That's a given. we only won one game. I'm just throwing out some options for what our defense set could be.

The smaller quicker guys are supposed to be linebackers / striker not defensive ends. I seriously doubt you can find a starting Miami DE who weighs 230. But I'm often wrong. Show me one.

We should be looking at Air Force anyway, not Miami. AF has 230lbs fullbacks and 225lbs -245lbs tight ends. Those guys negating our DE's is a problem.
Every defensive end on Miami's 3-deep depth chart is between 255 and 220 pounds.

This defense is built for speed. If our opponents can't get a hold of us because they aren't fast enough isn't that a better idea?
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Re: DE Position

Post by GeoAg » July 14th, 2021, 9:21 am

El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:01 am
GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
I agree we will be better than last season on defense. That's a given. we only won one game. I'm just throwing out some options for what our defense set could be.

The smaller quicker guys are supposed to be linebackers / striker not defensive ends. I seriously doubt you can find a starting Miami DE who weighs 230. But I'm often wrong. Show me one.

We should be looking at Air Force anyway, not Miami. AF has 230lbs fullbacks and 225lbs -245lbs tight ends. Those guys negating our DE's is a problem.
Couldn't find a starting DE at Miami at 230 so there you go.

Your AFA comparison is a good one and we aren't losing 1 on 1 battles to those guys because we aren't big enough IMO. Setting the edge is much more about being smart and fast than big. Of course, would love to have guys who are 6'4" and 250-260 who can run out there, but how many of those guys do we ever get? We might build a few but they generally don't come that way for us.

Also, most of the blocking on the edge for AFA comes from halfbacks at around 170-200 pounds

I have concerns about this team, but a position where we have more starting talent than positions available (with Hobbs-Vaughans, Joyner, and Heninger) isn't one of them. We can agree to disagree and if we get blasted off tackle and around the edge all year again I'll unhappily eat crow.


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Re: DE Position

Post by Roy McAvoy » July 14th, 2021, 9:33 am

El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:01 am
GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
I agree we will be better than last season on defense. That's a given. we only won one game. I'm just throwing out some options for what our defense set could be.

The smaller quicker guys are supposed to be linebackers / striker not defensive ends. I seriously doubt you can find a starting Miami DE who weighs 230. But I'm often wrong. Show me one.

We should be looking at Air Force anyway, not Miami. AF has 230lbs fullbacks and 225lbs -245lbs tight ends. Those guys negating our DE's is a problem.
Here's the Miami's defensive depth chart with sizes from last season.

Image

In contract, we have (& this is just some projections, I could be wrong on starters. I also expect some of these to be bigger by the time the season starts as they're trying hard to gain weight):

DE: Nick Heninger, 6'2" 235 lbs/Patrick Joyner, 6'2" 230 lbs
DT: Phil Paea, 6'4" 300 lbs
DT: Jahaziel Lee, 6'3" 310 lbs
DE: Byron Vaughns 6'4" 230 lbs
Striker: Cash Gilliam 5'11" 200 lbs
LB: Justin Rice, 6'2" 225 lbs
LB: AJ Vongphachanh, 6'2' 230 lbs
Corner: Kyle Mayberry, 5'10" 180 lbs
Safety: Shaq Bond, 5'11" 185 lbs
Safety: Hunter Reynolds 6'0" 200 lbs
Corner: Zahodri Jackson 5'10" 185 lbs
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Re: DE Position

Post by CaptainChaos » July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am

Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?



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Re: DE Position

Post by hickaggie » July 14th, 2021, 9:47 am

GeoAg wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:31 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
We'll be fine or at least way better than last year. DEs at Miami were and are about the same. 4 man front allows and requires smaller quicker guys at DE than the 3 man front
This is true. Henigar played as true DE 2 years ago when the Aggies tried the 4 man front. Last year they had him at rush end (OLB) so you are going to drop into coverage once in a while. Even in a 4 man front dropping into the flat once or twice a game to see if you can get in a passing lane isn't unheard of.

What I saw though was that Henigar unlike Tipa did a decent job squeezing. The DE in a 4 man front can't be too big unless they are athletic freaks because they have to be able to both squeeze and beat RBs and QBs to the sideline while sometimes having to take on both a DE and TE together who are both trying to keep them inside or push them outside in power.

Finding 235-255 type guys who can do that is tough and its encouraging to see we have 2-3 others like Henigar. The quality and versatility of the DEs will make or break this defense.
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Re: DE Position

Post by CaptainChaos » July 14th, 2021, 10:00 am

We also will want great depth at the Dline because if the offense is playing at top speed the defense will get lots of reps and the guys on the Dline will get fatigued quick.
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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 14th, 2021, 11:17 am

CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 10:00 am
We also will want great depth at the Dline because if the offense is playing at top speed the defense will get lots of reps and the guys on the Dline will get fatigued quick.
This is exactly why there has been a concentrated effort to bolster depth on the defensive side of the ball during recruiting.



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Re: DE Position

Post by El Sapo » July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm

CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.



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Re: DE Position

Post by AggiePT » July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm

El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
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Re: DE Position

Post by USU78 » July 14th, 2021, 2:28 pm

AggiePT wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
Bingo!
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: DE Position

Post by Intermeddler » July 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm

AggiePT wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
Yep. The entire reason Diaz implemented it was because teams could get Miami in base 4-3 and throw too easily. They had a good LB group that came in together as freshmen during Diaz's first year there as DC (a couple NFL end of roster guys Shaq Quartermann and Mike Pinckney and a guy still at Miami somehow Zach McCloud). But McCloud was especially bad in space and could not cover TEs, RBs, or slot receivers if he had to.

The purpose of the Striker was to replace that LB with someone big enough to hold up against the run who could line up in the box but still be useful in pass coverage. So you are exactly correct that the Striker may line up in the box to give a certain look but his job is pass coverage. The entire purpose was flexibility without changing personnel.

You will also see a DE drop inside and play a rush DT position on third and long or obvious pass situations (this is common everywhere though). Miami did this a lot with Greg Rousseau. You may also see the Striker swapped out for a true Nickel CB or one of the ILB swapped out for a nickel CB depending on matchups. Miami played GT every year which ran the option under Paul Johnson so Banda has seen that. They did usually change their fronts and looks for that game.

The whole philosophy is 1 gap, upfield aggression out of the front 4 with enough speed on the back end to recover and prevent too many big plays. The idea is forcing a sack, TFL, etc. is a drive killer and offenses are too good to not try and be disruptive. We will give up some gash run plays for this reason. Be prepared. But we will have a ton of TFLs and sacks that hopefully make up for it.
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Re: DE Position

Post by NavyBlueAggie » July 14th, 2021, 3:45 pm

El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
Insightful post El Sapo. We saw what happened when we put an excellent 235 lb OLB into the D E position in 2019. We wasted the talent of that young man, and such a waste it was.
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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 14th, 2021, 3:48 pm

NavyBlueAggie wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:45 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
Insightful post El Sapo. We saw what happened when we put an excellent 235 lb OLB into the D E position in 2019. We wasted the talent of that young man, and such a waste it was.
Except Tipa was lucky if he was 220. No matter what he was listed at, it wasn't his true weight.
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Re: DE Position

Post by NavyBlueAggie » July 14th, 2021, 4:05 pm

aggies22 wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:48 pm
NavyBlueAggie wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:45 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
Insightful post El Sapo. We saw what happened when we put an excellent 235 lb OLB into the D E position in 2019. We wasted the talent of that young man, and such a waste it was.
Except Tipa was lucky if he was 220. No matter what he was listed at, it wasn't his true weight.
And playing TIPA with a hand in the dirt across from players that ranging up to 100 lbs +/_ larger was coaching ignorance displayed at the highest order. Coach Ena just wasted this player by putting him in the D E position.
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Re: DE Position

Post by hickaggie » July 14th, 2021, 5:23 pm

aggies22 wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:48 pm
NavyBlueAggie wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:45 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
Insightful post El Sapo. We saw what happened when we put an excellent 235 lb OLB into the D E position in 2019. We wasted the talent of that young man, and such a waste it was.
Except Tipa was lucky if he was 220. No matter what he was listed at, it wasn't his true weight.
I think this is a great point. Tipa may have been listed at that but he looked between 210 and 220. He was an elite finesse rusher who had never put his hand down in his life. Forcing him that close to the tackle was malpractice at every level for multiple reasons. He got kicked out against off tackle runs, held inside while trying to contain, and held up close a lot more successfully trying to pass rush. I cannot imagine what Ena was thinking.

But a true lean 235 kid who is used to the position can survive and put on additional lean weight as he ages in the program.



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Re: DE Position

Post by NavyBlueAggie » July 14th, 2021, 6:53 pm

hickaggie wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 5:23 pm
aggies22 wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:48 pm
NavyBlueAggie wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 3:45 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 13th, 2021, 9:16 pm
These guys are 230lb- 235LB OLB's not DE's. Maybe you could call them rushing ends, if they come in on passing downs and go straight for the QB. That's not how Heninger played last season. He stood up and dropped into coverage. That isn't what a defensive lineman does.

So where do you put these guys? I already asked Coach Banda to only put one of them (not two) on the DL. It should be pretty obvious that our DL will get pushed around like a shopping cart with 2 OLB's on the DL

Whoever is the best pass rusher of the 3 plays DE. The other 2 battle for the LB position next to Rice.
Insightful post El Sapo. We saw what happened when we put an excellent 235 lb OLB into the D E position in 2019. We wasted the talent of that young man, and such a waste it was.
Except Tipa was lucky if he was 220. No matter what he was listed at, it wasn't his true weight.
I think this is a great point. Tipa may have been listed at that but he looked between 210 and 220. He was an elite finesse rusher who had never put his hand down in his life. Forcing him that close to the tackle was malpractice at every level for multiple reasons. He got kicked out against off tackle runs, held inside while trying to contain, and held up close a lot more successfully trying to pass rush. I cannot imagine what Ena was thinking.

But a true lean 235 kid who is used to the position can survive and put on additional lean weight as he ages in the program.

Certainly no quarrel that a lean 235 lb player can be developed into a larger player. TIPA was in his last year and the single development he displayed was injury from the beating he took from larger players hammering a smaller, out of position athlete. Abysmal judgement by the coaches as they misused TIPA in a 4 down aliment.
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Re: DE Position

Post by El Sapo » July 15th, 2021, 1:14 pm

Gary A was focused on LB's. He said we couldn't successfully recruit "Biggs" so he recruited LB's. What I see as a result of that mindset is that we have a lot of LB size guys on defense. You can see that B. Anderson is trying to change that with the transfers, but it's not going to happen this season.

Cade Hall is the best DE (and best defensive player) in the MW. He is listed at 6'2" 260lbs and is probably bigger than that. He came out of High School as a 2 star weighing 226....So it's possible to develop one of our guys.



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Re: DE Position

Post by jeffdan25 » July 15th, 2021, 1:54 pm

El Sapo wrote:
July 15th, 2021, 1:14 pm
Gary A was focused on LB's. He said we couldn't successfully recruit "Biggs" so he recruited LB's. What I see as a result of that mindset is that we have a lot of LB size guys on defense. You can see that B. Anderson is trying to change that with the transfers, but it's not going to happen this season.

Cade Hall is the best DE (and best defensive player) in the MW. He is listed at 6'2" 260lbs and is probably bigger than that. He came out of High School as a 2 star weighing 226....So it's possible to develop one of our guys.
I mean no disrespect to you Sapo, but you are missing the point. This is not an old school defense. This is not GA's defense. This is the way the game is moving. In a 4-2-5 defense which is what this defense is at it's core is all about speed and coverage. the day's of stacking 8 or 9 in the box are long gone. Ideal size for a d-end in this sytem is 6'4 250 and super athletic. we are not far off in size. The fact that we keep hearing about smash mouth football and over powering the other team is so far in the past that its not relevant. The game has changed. We have struggled the last few years because we have had a staff with limited creativity and imagination. Football is one of those things that if you don't evolve you get left in the dust. There is a reason that the service academy's are the only teams running a true triple option anymore. The only times teams run double tight ends is because their tight ends are basically receivers and they can create mismatches that way. The spread, The Rpo, The run and Shoot, are the way that offenses function these days. If all I'm worried about is having four three hundred lbs d-lineman and 3 250 lbs linebackers i'm going to get absolutely torched in the pashing game. I would give up 300 yards on the ground for maybe three touchdowns in a game than 300 yards through the air with 5 TD's. Like it or not that is what modern football is.



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Re: DE Position

Post by Full » July 15th, 2021, 2:37 pm

jeffdan25 wrote:
July 15th, 2021, 1:54 pm

I mean no disrespect to you Sapo, but you are missing the point. This is not an old school defense. This is not GA's defense. This is the way the game is moving. In a 4-2-5 defense which is what this defense is at it's core is all about speed and coverage. the day's of stacking 8 or 9 in the box are long gone. Ideal size for a d-end in this sytem is 6'4 250 and super athletic. we are not far off in size. The fact that we keep hearing about smash mouth football and over powering the other team is so far in the past that its not relevant. The game has changed. We have struggled the last few years because we have had a staff with limited creativity and imagination. Football is one of those things that if you don't evolve you get left in the dust. There is a reason that the service academy's are the only teams running a true triple option anymore. The only times teams run double tight ends is because their tight ends are basically receivers and they can create mismatches that way. The spread, The Rpo, The run and Shoot, are the way that offenses function these days. If all I'm worried about is having four three hundred lbs d-lineman and 3 250 lbs linebackers i'm going to get absolutely torched in the pashing game. I would give up 300 yards on the ground for maybe three touchdowns in a game than 300 yards through the air with 5 TD's. Like it or not that is what modern football is.
Addazio, Bohl, and Calhoun are on the schedule every year and want over at least 60% of plays to be in the running game. That’s a lot of games when you might want 8-9 in the box. I think there is concern when 5 of the 9 DEs are in the 230’s. My guess is that will change going forward, but there were more pressing concerns on to address on the roster.

I am looking forward to some creativity and imagination in play calling this year.



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Re: DE Position

Post by El Sapo » July 15th, 2021, 4:20 pm

Intermeddler wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm
AggiePT wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
Yep. The entire reason Diaz implemented it was because teams could get Miami in base 4-3 and throw too easily. They had a good LB group that came in together as freshmen during Diaz's first year there as DC (a couple NFL end of roster guys Shaq Quartermann and Mike Pinckney and a guy still at Miami somehow Zach McCloud). But McCloud was especially bad in space and could not cover TEs, RBs, or slot receivers if he had to.

The purpose of the Striker was to replace that LB with someone big enough to hold up against the run who could line up in the box but still be useful in pass coverage. So you are exactly correct that the Striker may line up in the box to give a certain look but his job is pass coverage. The entire purpose was flexibility without changing personnel.

You will also see a DE drop inside and play a rush DT position on third and long or obvious pass situations (this is common everywhere though). Miami did this a lot with Greg Rousseau. You may also see the Striker swapped out for a true Nickel CB or one of the ILB swapped out for a nickel CB depending on matchups. Miami played GT every year which ran the option under Paul Johnson so Banda has seen that. They did usually change their fronts and looks for that game.

The whole philosophy is 1 gap, upfield aggression out of the front 4 with enough speed on the back end to recover and prevent too many big plays. The idea is forcing a sack, TFL, etc. is a drive killer and offenses are too good to not try and be disruptive. We will give up some gash run plays for this reason. Be prepared. But we will have a ton of TFLs and sacks that hopefully make up for it.
Like these three runs?



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Re: DE Position

Post by newhouse9 » July 15th, 2021, 4:23 pm

I hope our 1s and 2s are better than our 3s.



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Re: DE Position

Post by aggies22 » July 15th, 2021, 5:18 pm

El Sapo wrote:
July 15th, 2021, 4:20 pm
Intermeddler wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm
AggiePT wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
Yep. The entire reason Diaz implemented it was because teams could get Miami in base 4-3 and throw too easily. They had a good LB group that came in together as freshmen during Diaz's first year there as DC (a couple NFL end of roster guys Shaq Quartermann and Mike Pinckney and a guy still at Miami somehow Zach McCloud). But McCloud was especially bad in space and could not cover TEs, RBs, or slot receivers if he had to.

The purpose of the Striker was to replace that LB with someone big enough to hold up against the run who could line up in the box but still be useful in pass coverage. So you are exactly correct that the Striker may line up in the box to give a certain look but his job is pass coverage. The entire purpose was flexibility without changing personnel.

You will also see a DE drop inside and play a rush DT position on third and long or obvious pass situations (this is common everywhere though). Miami did this a lot with Greg Rousseau. You may also see the Striker swapped out for a true Nickel CB or one of the ILB swapped out for a nickel CB depending on matchups. Miami played GT every year which ran the option under Paul Johnson so Banda has seen that. They did usually change their fronts and looks for that game.

The whole philosophy is 1 gap, upfield aggression out of the front 4 with enough speed on the back end to recover and prevent too many big plays. The idea is forcing a sack, TFL, etc. is a drive killer and offenses are too good to not try and be disruptive. We will give up some gash run plays for this reason. Be prepared. But we will have a ton of TFLs and sacks that hopefully make up for it.
Like these three runs?
No offense to Cooper Jones but those runs came against our 3rd/4th team guys.
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Re: DE Position

Post by hickaggie » July 16th, 2021, 8:33 am

El Sapo wrote:
July 15th, 2021, 4:20 pm
Intermeddler wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 2:39 pm
AggiePT wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:53 pm
El Sapo wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 1:31 pm
CaptainChaos wrote:
July 14th, 2021, 9:39 am
Isn't this kinda that whole which guys are 4/5 technique guys etc... I know little to nothing about this conversation, but it seems like this may be the question. I'm thinking the DC may have his run stopping DE's and his pass rushing DE's that he may want to sub in from 1st and 2nd down to 3rd down, or maybe some guys slide inside on 3rd downs and we add a pass rusher situationally - a guy could also slide outside and we add another guy inside on running downs, so maybe we see some 5 man fronts?
The striker is supposed to allow our defense to flex and change our defensive sets v pass or run without switching out players. I'd consider our base defense a 4-2-5 "nickel" since a striker is closer to a DB than a LB. It will be pretty obvious to the opposing team what set we're playing by the location of the striker on the field. Is he up alongside the LB's over the tight end? That's a 4-3 which is 7 in the box and a pretty standard defense v the run. If the striker isn't up in line with the LB's? Then he's a DB and we have 5 DB's which is a "Nickle" 4-2-5. There are only 6 in the box. Teams usually use that set in 3rd and long situations.
I actually think that having a striker on the field will make it pretty hard for an offense to know what set we're playing. That's the beauty of it. Just because a striker lines up over the tight end doesn't mean that is his assignment on that play. There are a lot of disguises used pre-snap to throw off the offensive play calling/blocking schemes. For example, if the striker lines up 5 yards over the TE he can blitz, fill a run gap, play man on the TE, drop into zone, or cover while another LB or DB blitzes. I personally love the flexibility. Keeping the offense guessing should, in theory, lead to more turnovers and get the ball back over to our offense.
Yep. The entire reason Diaz implemented it was because teams could get Miami in base 4-3 and throw too easily. They had a good LB group that came in together as freshmen during Diaz's first year there as DC (a couple NFL end of roster guys Shaq Quartermann and Mike Pinckney and a guy still at Miami somehow Zach McCloud). But McCloud was especially bad in space and could not cover TEs, RBs, or slot receivers if he had to.

The purpose of the Striker was to replace that LB with someone big enough to hold up against the run who could line up in the box but still be useful in pass coverage. So you are exactly correct that the Striker may line up in the box to give a certain look but his job is pass coverage. The entire purpose was flexibility without changing personnel.

You will also see a DE drop inside and play a rush DT position on third and long or obvious pass situations (this is common everywhere though). Miami did this a lot with Greg Rousseau. You may also see the Striker swapped out for a true Nickel CB or one of the ILB swapped out for a nickel CB depending on matchups. Miami played GT every year which ran the option under Paul Johnson so Banda has seen that. They did usually change their fronts and looks for that game.

The whole philosophy is 1 gap, upfield aggression out of the front 4 with enough speed on the back end to recover and prevent too many big plays. The idea is forcing a sack, TFL, etc. is a drive killer and offenses are too good to not try and be disruptive. We will give up some gash run plays for this reason. Be prepared. But we will have a ton of TFLs and sacks that hopefully make up for it.
Like these three runs?
Not defending the third string D ends but since that is the topic of this thread, all of those big runs went right through A gap. Not a lot they could have done unless they were fast enough to chase him down which they weren't.



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