"New" column about the football program

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"New" column about the football program

Post by NowhereLandAggie » December 26th, 2020, 12:43 pm

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/utah-stat ... tah-state/

Nothing breaking here, just a daily dose of hearsay against Noelle Cockett.

I would swear under oath though that I never had any encounter with her where she said or demonstrated any type of prejudice.

If that means that Gordon Monson believes I am not refined enough as individual, I can live with that.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Imakeitrain » December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm

“Cockett asked the players if they felt Maile’s religious and cultural background would impact the University’s future recruiting. Players were then asked about their own religious backgrounds and perceptions coming to USU.”

Hasn’t this been what pro-maile people have been saying? That we need a Polynesian Mormon connection? But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?

The more that comes out the more I believe someone is pulling significant political strings.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by GeoAg » December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm

There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Stewie Griffin » December 26th, 2020, 3:42 pm

GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by USU78 » December 26th, 2020, 3:48 pm

GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
So nobody is ever responsible for flying off the handle because he is ignorant or misperceived or doesn't even know what he doesn't know? :headscratch:
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by brownjeans » December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm

Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » December 26th, 2020, 5:00 pm

brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
It is a metaphor for how bad things have gotten. It doesn't mean it will never be good again. We are in a low point right now. Pretty crazy to think we had a 10 game winning streak just two years ago.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by brownjeans » December 26th, 2020, 5:26 pm

Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 5:00 pm
brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
It is a metaphor for how bad things have gotten. It doesn't mean it will never be good again. We are in a low point right now. Pretty crazy to think we had a 10 game winning streak just two years ago.
We've been way lower than this. Even with this, our program is in a good place overall.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » December 26th, 2020, 5:33 pm

brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Aggie formerly in Hawaii wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 5:00 pm
brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
It is a metaphor for how bad things have gotten. It doesn't mean it will never be good again. We are in a low point right now. Pretty crazy to think we had a 10 game winning streak just two years ago.
We've been way lower than this. Even with this, our program is in a good place overall.
Sure we've been lower, but we are pretty low. Yes we can turn it around, but it will take some time.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by ViAggie » December 26th, 2020, 5:45 pm

unless she has a history of racism and religious discrimination, I say chalk it up to a oooopsie and call it good.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by NowhereLandAggie » December 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm

GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » December 26th, 2020, 6:24 pm

ViAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 5:45 pm
unless she has a history of racism and religious discrimination, I say chalk it up to a oooopsie and call it good.
That is what I have thought of it. She probably misspoke and said something dumb, but I doubt she is some anti-Mormon bigot and racist against Polynesians. We'll see what the results of the investigation are, but it was probably a misunderstanding.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Aggie formerly in Hawaii » December 26th, 2020, 6:26 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm
GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
And he didn't lose a job. Nothing was promised to him beyond this year.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Imakeitrain » December 26th, 2020, 9:01 pm

brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
I disagree. I think pushing these stories is intentionally designed to harm the program.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Imakeitrain » December 26th, 2020, 9:09 pm

GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
So now Hartwell said something racist anti-Mormon too?

This article essentially says that the smoking gun is cockett asking the players if they thought maile’s background is relevant and for wanting to listen to their experiences.

No one has given a specific quote and in some instances reporters inadvertently highlight that recollections of the event are different.

Lastly there appears to have been coordination.

No, I don’t believe players just decided not to play the last game without a coach catching any wind of it.

So forgive me for being extremely skeptical.

The answer to skepticism is answers and information. It’s Maile’s camp that is restricting information.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by papaj » December 26th, 2020, 9:27 pm

I have no idea what happened, but will trust the process. Dr. Cockett is an excellent President (in my opinion) and I reached out to express my appreciation in general terms. I also made an extra contribution to the University.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by TheAKAggie » December 26th, 2020, 9:30 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote:
GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
Hell, i can’t even get interviews for positions I am qualified for.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by brownjeans » December 26th, 2020, 10:30 pm

Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 9:01 pm
brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
I disagree. I think pushing these stories is intentionally designed to harm the program.
I said nothing about the stories.
Phrases like "burning down the program" are exaggerated, and damaging in and of themselves. If you are concerned about the health of the program, maybe consider giving the stories less power, not more.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Imakeitrain » December 27th, 2020, 12:00 am

brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 9:01 pm
brownjeans wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 3:57 pm
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 1:20 pm
But now it’s grounds for burning down the program?
We should stop saying this. Neither our program or our school is burning.
The program and school are more than a player, coach, president. People come and go, programs and schools carry on.
I disagree. I think pushing these stories is intentionally designed to harm the program.
I said nothing about the stories.
Phrases like "burning down the program" are exaggerated, and damaging in and of themselves. If you are concerned about the health of the program, maybe consider giving the stories less power, not more.
I'd often agree with that statement. But in this case I stand by my words.

I find the claim that there is racism/prejudice to the point of it guiding hiring decisions to be a serious claim- to the point of being incendiary.

Racism is an extremely serious claim. In some ways "racist" is short of rapist and murderer in seriousness- (and for some, it's viewed as worse)

So I think the claim is serious enough my response is not exaggerated.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by WAAggie » December 27th, 2020, 1:14 am

Without facts, it’s uncalled for at this
Point. How about some presumption of innocence? The players seem like they approach a lynch mob mentality trying to keep a nice/fun guy, but lousy coach.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by brownjeans » December 27th, 2020, 8:31 am

Imakeitrain wrote:
December 27th, 2020, 12:00 am
I'd often agree with that statement. But in this case I stand by my words.

I find the claim that there is racism/prejudice to the point of it guiding hiring decisions to be a serious claim- to the point of being incendiary.

Racism is an extremely serious claim. In some ways "racist" is short of rapist and murderer in seriousness- (and for some, it's viewed as worse)

So I think the claim is serious enough my response is not exaggerated.
Let me see if I can illustrate how I think words like that increase the damage.
Two identical homes have renters who trash the place. Both homes sustain equal damage.
The first homeowner is angry at the past renters and wants to stick it to them. He says, "my home is in shambles! They ruined it!"
The second homeowner is also angry, but focused on future renters. He says, "my home is a great home.The damage was superficial. I've got the best people working to repair the damage. We're using this as an opportunity to make the home even better."

Which do you want to rent? Maybe it doesn't matter - this is a message board. But maybe it does. I don't know.

I agree the racist claims are incendiary, and may cause irreparable harm to Cockett. But USU is not Cockett. It's a really great program and school.



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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Imakeitrain » December 27th, 2020, 10:49 am

brownjeans wrote:
December 27th, 2020, 8:31 am
Imakeitrain wrote:
December 27th, 2020, 12:00 am
I'd often agree with that statement. But in this case I stand by my words.

I find the claim that there is racism/prejudice to the point of it guiding hiring decisions to be a serious claim- to the point of being incendiary.

Racism is an extremely serious claim. In some ways "racist" is short of rapist and murderer in seriousness- (and for some, it's viewed as worse)

So I think the claim is serious enough my response is not exaggerated.
Let me see if I can illustrate how I think words like that increase the damage.
Two identical homes have renters who trash the place. Both homes sustain equal damage.
The first homeowner is angry at the past renters and wants to stick it to them. He says, "my home is in shambles! They ruined it!"
The second homeowner is also angry, but focused on future renters. He says, "my home is a great home.The damage was superficial. I've got the best people working to repair the damage. We're using this as an opportunity to make the home even better."

Which do you want to rent? Maybe it doesn't matter - this is a message board. But maybe it does. I don't know.

I agree the racist claims are incendiary, and may cause irreparable harm to Cockett. But USU is not Cockett. It's a really great program and school.
But what if the second tenants are going around telling everyone the owner is racist?

And regardless of how well it’s fixed up- no one wants to rent from you. Also they’re getting ready to sue you?


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by USU78 » December 27th, 2020, 10:52 am

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by El Sapo » December 27th, 2020, 11:53 am

I'm glad the Monson column was brought up for discussion. When I first read it I was disturbed. It seemed to me like Monson was arguing a narrative that wasn't part of the incident. But, Monson has the media megaphone for his narrative.

I had to read it again closely. Then you see that It's not a false narrative, Monson is parroting an opinion of the "leaders of the Utah Pacific Islander community.."

So make sure you read his column in that perspective. The opinion of a non-objective third party to the situation in support of Frank.

If it seems biased against USU? That would be because it is.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by El Sapo » December 27th, 2020, 12:07 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm
GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
Curious NowhereLandAggie, Were you required to take, or did you receive any anti-discrimination training as an employee of USU?

It's been common here in CA, mostly for management personnel. But maybe the last 2-3 years, employers have been requiring all the employees to get training. Good way to avoid lawsuits. Show that the company has rules and regulations in place, and they are trained to respond properly to incidents. Frank should know the regulations, maybe it's the players need training.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by ViAggie » December 27th, 2020, 12:42 pm

El Sapo wrote:
December 27th, 2020, 12:07 pm
NowhereLandAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm
GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
Curious NowhereLandAggie, Were you required to take, or did you receive any anti-discrimination training as an employee of USU?

It's been common here in CA, mostly for management personnel. But maybe the last 2-3 years, employers have been requiring all the employees to get training. Good way to avoid lawsuits. Show that the company has rules and regulations in place, and they are trained to respond properly to incidents. Frank should know the regulations, maybe it's the players need training.
I’m guessing this is the end result if it’s not already being done at the University.


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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by NowhereLandAggie » December 27th, 2020, 3:36 pm

El Sapo wrote:
December 27th, 2020, 12:07 pm
NowhereLandAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 6:09 pm
GeoAg wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 2:36 pm
There is no one behind the curtain on this, just very poor judgement by Cockett and Hartwell. If there was a bias issue, I am glad this is happening to uncover it. If there isn't, she should still be in trouble for saying something that allowed the perception to exist.
I am not a lawyer, but I was an employee of USU and a public employee the same.

A whole process is taking place and they will have to prove that discrimination took place in not hiring him in order for her to lose her job. If her alleged comments were part of a larger context not being reported (both she and Hartwell have been largely quiet on this, wisely I might add) then they can't simply dismiss her. Otherwise the Board of Regents would be putting themselves in a position of litigation. Also they would need to find a pattern of this within her role at the University since that is also an allegation. Plenty of people are saying the same thing that I am, we never had that experience with her.

I hate to break this to Frank, but people lose jobs at USU all of the time for a variety of reasons. If they have documented in his file why he has been let go, that holds more away than a private conversation where accounts differ a bit.
Curious NowhereLandAggie, Were you required to take, or did you receive any anti-discrimination training as an employee of USU?

It's been common here in CA, mostly for management personnel. But maybe the last 2-3 years, employers have been requiring all the employees to get training. Good way to avoid lawsuits. Show that the company has rules and regulations in place, and they are trained to respond properly to incidents. Frank should know the regulations, maybe it's the players need training.
Yes. I haven't worked for USU since 2014, but it was standard training to go through Civil Rights trainings. In basic terms anyone can file a complaint if they deem you are discriminating against them. There was a number they could call for an official complaint that we were required to hang in our office. That was the final authority, though a person could call them first. Initially a supervisor could look into it, and up the chain if it was never resolved until it reached the executive branch.

I still have trainings every year about these and other things in my current employment, but another is also stressed. The accused also has rights, and while it is not going to sell papers, the burden of proof does not lie on them. People can accuse all day if they like, but they do have to have fairly tangible evidence for actions to be taken. I am not saying a remark can't get you fired, but in general it has to be blatant with some sort of action to constitute job loss.

I lost my job for completely separate reason, relating neither to my performance, nor any complaint filed from someone. I have a letter from Noelle Cockett, Stan Albrecht, and Ray Cowart stating the procedure they were following in the USU Faculty code. It wasn't a real fun thing, and even she wasn't certain what to do based on the circumstances that led to it. (As far as she was aware it had actually never happened before, at least in that department.)

If I wanted to be bitter about it, I could have been, but she was actually very kind and professional. It is why I don't buy the narrative as one side is telling.
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Re: "New" column about the football program

Post by Stewie Griffin » December 27th, 2020, 3:44 pm

NowhereLandAggie wrote:
December 26th, 2020, 12:43 pm
https://www.sltrib.com/sports/utah-stat ... tah-state/

Nothing breaking here, just a daily dose of hearsay against Noelle Cockett.

I would swear under oath though that I never had any encounter with her where she said or demonstrated any type of prejudice.

If that means that Gordon Monson believes I am not refined enough as individual, I can live with that.
Gordon monson is a washed-up journalist, working for a newspaper about to go out of business.



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